OldSolduer
Army.ca Relic
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Because we have an inferiority thing going on PLUS industrial benefits for a select few.
Norway Drops Airbus NH90. Wants Refund
- Thread starter Kirkhill
- Start date
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Half-a-dozen Bv206s as permanent issue to each of the Ranger Patrols and to 50 or so to each Territorial Brigade Group, or even each "Division"
And that got me looking -
| Specifications | MV-22B | C-47B-DK | DHC-6 300) | DHC-5D | V-280 |
| Osprey | Dakota | Twin Otter | Buffalo | Valor | |
| Crew: | 3–4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 4 |
| Troops: | 24 | 28 | 20 | 41 | 14 |
| Speed: | 275 kn (316 mph, 509 km/h) [262] | 224 mph (360 km/h, 195 kn) | (338 km/h, 182 kn) | 227 kn (261 mph, 420 km/h) | 320 mph (520 km/h, 280 kn) |
| Ferry range: | 2,230 nmi (2,570 mi, 4,130 km) | 3,600 mi (5,800 km, 3,100 nmi) | 771 nmi / 1,427 km | 1,770 nmi (2,040 mi, 3,280 km) | 2,400 mi (3,900 km, 2,100 nmi) |
| Ferry Time: | 8.1 h | 15.9 h | 4.2 h | 7.8 h | |
| Maximum take-off weight: | VTO: 47,500 lb (21,546 kg) | 31,000 lb (14,061 kg) | 12,500 lb / 5,670 kg[a] | 49,200 lb (22,317 kg) | 30,865 lb (14,000 kg) |
| Empty weight: | 31,818 lb (14,432 kg) | 18,135 lb (8,226 kg) | 7,415 lb / 3,363 kg | 25,160 lb (11,412 kg) | 18,078 lb (8,200 kg) |
| Power/mass: | 0.259 hp/lb (0.426 kW/kg) | 0.0926 hp/lb (0.1522 kW/kg) | 0.1 hp/lb (0.16 kW/kg) | Power/mass: | |
| Powerplant: | 2 × Rolls-Royce T406-AD-400 | 2 × Pratt & Whitney R-1830-90C | 2 × Pratt & Whitney PT6A-27 | 2 × General Electric CT64-820-4 | 2 × General Electric T64 |
| Powerplant: | 2 × 6,150 hp (4,590 kW) | 2 × 1,200 hp (890 kW) | 2 × 460 kW / 620shp | 2 × 3,133 shp (2,336 kW) | 3,925 to 4,750 shp (2,927 to 3,542 kW) |
| Length: | 57 ft 4 in (17.48 m) | 63 ft 9 in (19.43 m) | 51 ft 9 in (15.77 m) | 79 ft 0 in (24.08 m) | 50.5 ft (15.4 m) |
| Width: | 84 ft 6.8 in (25.776 m) including rotors | 95 ft 6 in (29.11 m) | 65 ft 0 in (19.81 m) | 96 ft 0 in (29.26 m) | 81.79 ft (24.93 m) |
| Height: | 22 ft 1 in (6.73 m) engine nacelles vertical | 17 ft 0 in (5.18 m) | 19 ft 6 in / 5.94 m | 28 ft 8 in (8.74 m) | 23 ft 0 in (7 m) |
| Wing area: | 301.4 sq ft (28.00 m2) | 987 sq ft (91.7 m2) | 420 sq ft (39 m2)) | 945 sq ft (87.8 m2) | |
| Service ceiling: | 25,000 ft (7,600 m) | 26,400 ft (8,000 m) | 25,000 ft / 7,620 m | 31,000 ft (9,400 m) | 6,000 ft (1,800 m) |
440 Squadron
Send it back to Winnipeg
Send all the Buffalo and Kingfisher crews back there along with the Cormorant crews
Swap the Twotters, Buffalos, Kingfishers and Cormorants for Ospreys (Osprey looks a better overall solution than the Valor to me)
Send Dets out to FOLs (Comox, Yellowknife, Iqaluit, Goose Bay, Greenwood)
Yellow Fleet
Green Fleet
Create a second squadron in Trenton or Petawawa.
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US Army Selects BAE Systems Hägglunds for Its Cold Weather All-Terrain Vehicle (CATV) Programme
The US Army has selected vehicles from BAE Systems Hägglunds for its Cold Weather All-Terrain Vehicle (CATV) Programme. The CATV ...
militaryleak.com
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@Kirkhill the Osprey is big, much bigger than the Osprey.
34 troops versus 14 (combat/floor seating)
It limits it for work in some areas, and while a great platform, isn’t a UH substitute.
It was a SeaKnight (Labrador) replacement, not a UH-1 or UH-60 one.
I’m not sure how the down wash would be in some SAR recovery situations.
34 troops versus 14 (combat/floor seating)
It limits it for work in some areas, and while a great platform, isn’t a UH substitute.
It was a SeaKnight (Labrador) replacement, not a UH-1 or UH-60 one.
I’m not sure how the down wash would be in some SAR recovery situations.
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Not fun.
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I get that it is big - that is why my comparatives included the Buffalo and the Dakota. It is smaller than both although it gives up 6 to 10 tonnes in carrying capacity to the Vertical Lift running gear.
As to the down wash - Maybe we keep a hold of the Cormorants for those types of rescues. On the other hand I believe the Cormorants and Cyclones have pretty significant down wash as well.
This is not a UH replacement. UH, like the Bvs are a local resource that can be permanently tasked. Scattered Griffon flights permanently operated by Rangers?
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A more flexible theatre transport like the Buffalo and the Twin Otter?
Moving people into remote areas if not right on target. Extracting small bodies of people from remote communities without needing an airstrip.
Also it fits into the "Big Section - Small Platoon" discussion - allowing for cargo space as well.
- Reaction score
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OK - this is my thread - my drift.
Canada buys V22s for both the Yellow Fleet and the Green Fleet. Primary advantage is its long FERRY range. A central fleet or two can self deploy rapidly to a crisis area. There the V22s can hook up with assets and troops flown in by other means. The V22 may have limitations, like down wash in the SAR role. But it offers more opportunities in being able to land anywhere there aren't any trees. That includes ships.
The V22 is also big enough to accommodate Argo ATVs internally, along with 16 or so bodies.
Meanwhile, for the SAR role, swap the Cormorants for additional Chinooks.
Problem.
Both Chinook and Osprey are Boeing products and Boeing has perturbed our leader.
Opportunity
Osprey is a joint venture with Bell
Bell-Boeing is looking at wrapping up Osprey production in the next few years.
Bell owns Mirabel
Canada has a track record of buying expired and expiring licences.
Boeing gets back in our leaders good books by taking advantage of its Bell association, convinces Bell to open an Osprey support line at Mirabel and sells 34 Ospreys and 17 more Chinooks to Canada.
National Defence and all.
Canada buys V22s for both the Yellow Fleet and the Green Fleet. Primary advantage is its long FERRY range. A central fleet or two can self deploy rapidly to a crisis area. There the V22s can hook up with assets and troops flown in by other means. The V22 may have limitations, like down wash in the SAR role. But it offers more opportunities in being able to land anywhere there aren't any trees. That includes ships.
The V22 is also big enough to accommodate Argo ATVs internally, along with 16 or so bodies.
Meanwhile, for the SAR role, swap the Cormorants for additional Chinooks.
Problem.
Both Chinook and Osprey are Boeing products and Boeing has perturbed our leader.
Opportunity
Osprey is a joint venture with Bell
Bell-Boeing is looking at wrapping up Osprey production in the next few years.
Bell owns Mirabel
Canada has a track record of buying expired and expiring licences.
Boeing gets back in our leaders good books by taking advantage of its Bell association, convinces Bell to open an Osprey support line at Mirabel and sells 34 Ospreys and 17 more Chinooks to Canada.
National Defence and all.
But then again, our neither the Buffalo nor the C295 can stop overhead of a downed a/c or dismasted schooner. But the Osprey could easily drop a Sartec and all necessary gear right on the money without any concern for downwash to set things up and wait for the cormorant to arrive, or another vessel. Each has their strengths and weaknesses. At least with the Osprey they would be able to match the Buffs performance in tight places.
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I think everyone gets over hung up about the STOL performance of the Buffalo. From the Buff drivers I spoke to, it seemed pretty “niche” and could be worked around, most times.
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Buying from the US is a gigantic pain in the ass because of the colossal stupidity that is ITAR. It's like dealing with the mafia. It was implemented so the US can control their military technology (not give it to bad guys) and has morphed into what is essentially a law that allows Congress to create monopolistic predatory behavior for their defense establishment donors. ITAR delays and restricts projects quite often.
This is why many look outside the US for their equipment and Canada should as well for a lot of stuff.
There are dozens of procurements of non-US stuff being purchased by the CAF that work just fine. Hell, most of the HCM upgrade is done with non-US equipment just to avoid ITAR. SMART-S radar, SG-180 radar, Elisra, 57mm Bofors, CMS 330, MASS etc... Without ITAR we're not beholden to US Congress if we want to fix something or change something.
not STOL as much as turning in tight corners plus its performance in icing conditions. Also, its payload wasn't too shabby for a 60's vintage light transport
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Even that is pretty “niche”.
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Canada has a number of cutouts for ITAR. The biggest headache on ITAR is generally that most CAF staff work is poor on the explanation of use.
ITAR items go through DoD, and Congress only gets a say if it’s not green lit by DoD, OR exceeds X billion (I believe it is now 30B USD).
Speaking to a number of DLR folks they are honestly woefully informed about ITAR, and even some CANSOF folks needed to be talked through how to write the reason.
*Which is annoying as Ft Bragg had explained and even faxed a letter that just needed a signature block that is used for the 5E tier 1’s to have nonexportable items go through.
For Canada ITAR really is only a thing if Canada makes it a thing.
A Robertson screwdriver is pretty 'niche' too, unless the screw to be removed is a robertson and then it is invaluable. S&R on the west coast is a very niche environment. Long distances and narrow spaces over most of the province. It is a unique environment and needs a unique solution. IMHO the C130 is not a good replacement in that environment: too big and, although its turning radius is impressive it really wasn't designed for canyon flying. The cormorant hasn't got the legs or the speed to cover the province properly. Perhaps if we had a base up at the tip of the island (Port Hardy) or further up on the mainland it could do the job. The C295 is a piece of junk. So that leaves the Osprey or a new build Buffalo, neither of which is ever going to happen.
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Well, it seems like the H-Model Herc will do the job on the West coast for the foreseable future. We’ll see if your beliefs hold true.
Colin Parkinson
Army.ca Myth
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Personally I slept better knowing that the AQ could not get grip screws for their Sigs. At SHOT I went up to the State Department booth and said; "ITAR as it is now, is the greatest gift to the Chinese, you invent something and the Chinese sell the knock off to the world".
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You say that like it's a bad thing.
Cheap Chinese tires blamed for Russian convoy unable to reach Kyiv
Cheap Chinese tires have been blamed for a Russian convoy of armoured vehicles being unable to reach Kyiv.
www.cityam.com
My buddy was an Instructor Pilot on both the Herc and the Buff, he says he’ll take the herc any day. According to Wikipedia, the insufficient range of the Cormorant is actually further than the Buff.
