Native Roadblock in Quebec

[foresterab]

A couple of points here for consideration:

1) armed protest is an illegal act.  Therefore those who are packing rifles should be persecuted to the full extent of the law as participation in a protest is not a justification for having firearms present onsite.

2) blockades have occured accross Canada over the years. Most unfortunately have been with native groups for various issues but there is also a well documented environmental history especially on Vancouver Island.  People have been arrrested, charged and served time for blockades in British Columbia however over the years a set of unofficial "ethics" if you wish to call it that have evolved and this is much rarer than before.

3) The one justification given is that the native group wants to log dead and diseased timber from the land.  This is fairly common however one slight problem....due to centuries of logging and changing practices Quebec reduced it's provincial harvest rate by 10% accross the board about three years ago.  So very little unallocated wood exists.

4) No reference is given to the volume of timber requested.  A log home takes approximately 2.5 truckloads of timber...  Most provinces have programs for small timber permits which are put up for competitive bid.  Direct allocation of timber harvesting rights has basically disappeared due to a little dispute called the Softwood Lumber Agreement with the United States.  And yes...permits that small are scrutinized.

5) The claim that no economic benifit is achieved through the logging of the trees to the community.  It's true that in 99.9% of the cases a community or group can't claim direct shares of the monies spent. However there are other benifits...employment oportunities, roads for hunting, fishing and recreation, slashpiles with logs left to make firewood gathering easier, stumpage dues and taxes paid as a corperation that in turn all Canadians recieve in the form of education funding and health care.  We can argue over the value of these items and whether the allocation of them is correct...but we all recieve some benifits.

6) Most areas of Quebec don't have settled Land Claims or Treaties.  Sucks..to put it bluntly...but that is the history of the province. The negotiations are there and some are settled....but I'm not sure how much that fact impacts their motives.

7) 90% of the comments referenced in the media article are the same ones I've heard in Ontario, Alberta, and British Columbia.  They're by no mean unique but by drawing attention to yourself you might achieve some short term objective at the cost of your fellow Canadians respect. Caldonia I think is a prime example of this issue.

Anyways...just some comments to put this in perspective.

 

[Strike]

Okay, I think that was the best written, most thought out comment, without any emotional outburst, that I've seen on this thread so far.

foresterab, thanks for educating us all a little more.  Sometimes we can get so emotional about things we forget what the actual reason for these protests are.  Keep these posts coming.

 

[foresterab]

Easy when it's my regular job....I can't fix a tank but I can talk about logging.

Appreciate the positive reponse as this is something we tend to be emotional about: good, bad, and otherwise.

 

[childs56]

Difference

Native protests with guns, anti tank rockets and other weapons.
What happens? Nothing they call it justice and the courts leave it alone. They believe it is their right to protest the old fashioned way. Using show of force and scare tactics.

White guy protests with a sign that his job is being threatend by those people above because they are blocking the road he needs to use for travel, he stands his ground.
He gets arrested, gets charged and has a criminal record.

You tell me what is right and what is wrong?

I feel sorry for those that take offence to people who wonder why Natives are allowed to do these types of things and get away with it. People do stereo type them , then again wouldnt you when everytime they protest, it gets carried away with a bunch of degenerates wearing camo gear and bandannas to hide their identitys toteing guns and grenades .
Why I feel sorry for those who take offence is that untill you realize these are not isolated, but actually systemic incidences, then we are to be doomed with the ongoing dangerous and some times deadly antics of these out of control people. (these being the protesters who use guns).

Untill our Goverement makes a strong and determined stand on this issue then all Canadians will be held hostage by one group looking out for their own interests.

To compare truckers blocking the roads or farmers the front of the parliment buildings to fully armed and willing to use deadly force protesters is silly. The only hazard posed by the Truckers or Farmers is road delays and or a smelly front door step. 
The only hazard posed by the gun toteing wizbang degenerates is dead bodys, Hopefully theirs. 

 

[Strike]

White guy protests with a sign that his job is being threatend by those people above because they are blocking the road he needs to use for travel, he stands his ground.
He gets arrested, gets charged and has a criminal record.

Sorry, but I don't recall reading about that one in the papers.  Reference please?

 

[The_Falcon]

Sorry, but I don't recall reading about that one in the papers.  Reference please?

Caledonia

 

[childs56]

The latest protest in Ontario, cannot remember the name of the town.  
The last three protests between Loggers in BC and Special rights People.

It happens, most of the time it doesnt make big headline news. They like to keep these things on the low and low.

 

[Strike]

I recall that there was a little more than someone protesting with a placard in Caledonia -- I think it got a little physical, did it not?

The last three protests between Loggers in BC and Special rights People.

Point being, there are other groups that participate in these activities.

BTW, Anyone have any news on Tyendinega (sp?)?  It was in the news awhile back but haven't heard anything lately.  Has there been some type or resolution?

 

[The_Falcon]

I recall that there was a little more than someone protesting with a placard in Caledonia -- I think it got a little physical, did it not?

There were a few instances, some more benign, and some wound up in a few dust ups, but the fact remained, the OPP dealed with whitey alot more harshly (ie arresting people/laying charges).

 

[orange.paint]

I have never heard of a bunch of other Canadians taking to the roads with weapons.If you can prove me wrong by all means,as I would find it quite interesting.

I always understood if you showed up in public with a firearm the cops would arrest you.

Guess I'm wrong.

 

[1feral1]

I always understood if you showed up in public with a firearm the cops would arrest you.

Or worse, shoot and KILL you.

Feel lucky to be living in Canada, as if this incident happened elsewhere in the world, the outcome would be different, they'd be dead!

Looking back at the international embarrassment of Oka, back in 1990. Again those natives should feel lucky to be living in Canada, as again elsewhere the outcome would have been completly different.

We are all lucky to be Canadians, we have it too easy and soft, and sadly we know it.

However we have laws pertaining to the use of firearms in crimes (yes there was a crime here), and they should be strictly enforced in this case, if not, what message are we sending anyways? use a gun and get your way, or at least get away with it. What a joke!

Shakes head, but not suprised.

Wes

 

[childs56]

Oka, Gustifan Lake BC, the other smaller one in BC, one more in Northern Ontario.

All of these in the past 10 years or so.

There are more but they usually do not make headlines as they are in remote areas and such not much is said about them.


What we dont know can and will hurt us.

http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/08/30/native-stand-offs-a-failure-of-common-sense/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.canadaka.net%2Farticle-670.html&frame=true

 

[Strike]

That's a very well written article and seems fairly unbiased in its writing.

I thinks the following pretty much says how I feel about the whole situation:

While many Canadians are sympathetic towards the native cause, what few are willing to accept is the outright thuggery and violence committed by native protestors in support of it.

 

[bdog]

^ I'm not sure about using term protester there and those that use violence are criminals or even may be terrorists but sure as hell not legitimate protest  the vast majority of people advocating for aboriginal rights are angered by the people that take violent action. Even blocking a road well maybe criminal is alegitimate form of civil disobedience however taken up guns  at that  blockade is a criminal and dangerous act that police should do something about. I am native and has some people call me a race traitor because I think it's criminal when violent action is taken is supposed in support of aboriginal rights.  Really I think a lot of these people are young who are just looking for something to stand up for though they go about it and a very wrong way.

 

[foresterab]

Bdog,

You raise a cruicial point there.  The seperation of an armed individual versus the protestor that blockades.  To protest is well documented whether it is through picket lines, bulletins, or road blocks on the side of the highway. 

Opposing this are two parties:

1) armed.  Absolutely no excuse for this and full law enforcement should be taking place.

2) prohibiting public access.  There is a freedom of movement in Canada and also specifically written into many provincial laws regarding access.  You can protest with a roadblock, stop someone long enough to offer them a phamlet, and then let them go freely having made your point.  To shut down a public highway though is an act against the public in general.  This is the area for fines/arrests etc depending on the law of Quebec.

I deal with this topic way too much...and it is tough to seperate the emotional from the broad perspective.  For myself personally the biggest failure is not so much that the protests occur but that the community leaders and elders who represent that community or nation aren't stepping up to the plate to say "this is an unacceptable way to act".  It is extremely frusterating to try to act in good faith and have open discussions with 9 out of 10 people making progress on an issue and then have the last person come in fired up over some act/ historical injustice/ percieved right (or combination of all three) and stall or force things to fall apart while the others do nothing.

That being said it is slowly...slowly...changing.  I have been at meetings discussing issues where differing local communities have said enough, told a collegue to shut up in Cree (I assume that's what was said as I don't speak the language), and brought things back on topic.  This is happening more and more as folks are realizing that proactive action works much more effective and creates a much better relationship longterm than short term, radicalized action that destroys trust.  The downside is that the reprimand given to the idividual (in this case protester and even worse, armed protester) must be just as loud as the action the indivual completed.  Sure you can chastise them at home or on the side of the road...but where's the press conference seperating the community from the indivuals?

The comment of being young and looking for something to stand up for is an interesting one given the sometimes drastic differences between the roles of the elder, the parents, and the youths.  However I think part of the responsiblity must also be placed back upon the community and parents.  There is no reason why the youth can't be the doctor needed, or carpenter, or stock broker the community needs.  Yes...it means leaving the land and home for schooling the same as any other Canadian and yes...the change in cultures can be drastic.  But for those communites that I work with who actively promote their youth to compete as equals I see a noticable difference in housing, vehicles, pride, and promise for the future to the point they have left the local "european" culture to now play catch-up.  Now I realize this only works for those who are near populations centers where the oportunities exist...the north shore of Hudson Bay may not be the best location for this development growth to occur (just picking an example).  But in reference the location referenced in article...there is logging in the area.  So compete as Canadians for the equipment operators, foresters, government land managers, hunting guides etc. jobs that exist without demanding special treatment and the issue of race disappears.

Anywho...back to work as Army.ca has distracted me enough today