Morality Issues and the Military

[Fusaki]

I find all forms of pacifism to be a disgusting way of life, and do not tolerate them as a rule, I find it to be the ultimate cop out, a means of shirking ones duty to their country or in some cases community.

I'm reminded of this quote:

"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."

-Robert A. Heinlein

Both MG34 and Heinlein are bang on. Reaping the benefits of our country while stating that violence is always the greater evil is not only hypocritical - its parasitic. Pacifists not only lack the courage to risk themselves for the sake of the group, but they twist their moral philosophy and perception of reality to the point that they think it is the noble thing to do. Simply by accepting this idea as "OK" is a degradation to our society. It shows complacency towards those who want the authority of self-determination without the responsibility that comes with it. In the end, complacency kills.

The world is a scary place. We should have dumped the dead weight yesterday.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The fact that pacifism can survive in our culture is a sign that we have something worth fighting for. Not all pacifists are useless, the very committed ones are generally also deeply involved in the community helping others and taking risks. Like my grandfather, he stood for his beliefs but still carried out an important and useful task for the community. A culture that is made up of purely warriors will be unbalanced and eventually doomed, just as a culture of all pacifists would be. The tough part of having a successful culture is striking a useful balance between the parts in order to be more than the sum of those parts. The balancing act is always shifting depending on the internal and external pressures on it.

 

[Fusaki]

Not all pacifists are useless, the very committed ones are generally also deeply involved in the community helping others and taking risks. Like my grandfather, he stood for his beliefs but still carried out an important and useful task for the community.

I don't agree that your grandfather was a true pacifist. He might have thought so, but as a stretcher bearer in WW1 he was supporting the war effort. He helped to ensure that those who could no longer fight made it back home to their families, and he also helped to ensure that those who could heal enough were eventually able to make it back in the trenches. Calling him a pacifist is like calling the #2 on a C6 a pacifist. While he may not have pulled the trigger, the war would not have been won without those in jobs like his.

Just because someone is not at the pointy end of the spear does not make them a pacifist. Firefighters, teachers, bus drivers, and car salesmen can all understand that violence is sometimes necessary. A pacifist refuses to accept this fact.

 

[xena]

It shows complacency towards those who want the authority of self-determination without the responsibility that comes with it. In the end, complacency kills.

The world is a scary place. We should have dumped the dead weight yesterday.

This is where I will point out differences in certain types of pacifists.  There are the "protest anything they can" types who use this philosophy as a cop out.  As for them, I agree with you Wonderbread.

But when it comes to people who have serious religious beliefs (for example, the Anabaptists who apply the "turn the other cheek" Bible passage literally), who apply them to their lives as consistently as they can, and have served their countries as best as they could within that framework of their beliefs, and who have died for their beliefs, it is hard to call them dead weight or complacent.

In the end, it's this type of freedom we fought for and are continuing to fighting for.  It's an incredibly poor freedom to only be allowed to think the way someone else does.  We all should have the same freedoms - even the idiots.  ;D

As I was typing, Wonderbread, I saw your response to Colin.  We're getting in to the various "types" of pacifism here.  We might all need to take a reading break, and come back to this after some research.  Just my thoughts though...

 

[Greymatters]

Although its usually a bad thing to get in between two opposing viewpoints, I find myself there...

There is no such things as absolute morality.

I would say there are few things for which there is an absolute morality, but it does exist for some concepts.

It is always wrong to lie, to kill, to cheat, etc. 

And I would have to disagree with this.  I think the concept of morals and ethics is being mixed together here...

 

[MG34]

We can learn much from Heinlein:

    * Morals — all correct moral laws — derive from the instinct to survive. Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.

    * Correct morality can only be derived from what man is — not from what do-gooders and well-meaning aunt Nellies would like him to be.

    * A "pacifist male" is a contradiction in terms. Most self-described "pacifists" are not pacific; they simply assume false colors. When the wind changes, they hoist the Jolly Roger.

    * A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate,    act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

We can learn much from Heinlein:

    * Morals — all correct moral laws — derive from the instinct to survive. Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.

    * Correct morality can only be derived from what man is — not from what do-gooders and well-meaning aunt Nellies would like him to be.

     * A "pacifist male" is a contradiction in terms. Most self-described "pacifists" are not pacific; they simply assume false colors. When the wind changes, they hoist the Jolly Roger.

     * A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate,    act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

Man I'd better get off my duff.....I can"t do all those things on the list....anyone seen my copy of "Planning an Invasion for Dummys?" ;D

 

[Greymatters]

     * A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. 

Ii would be a very small group of people who would have done all these things...

 

[MG34]

Yup, but if everyone could  we would be better off for it ;D

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We can learn much from Heinlein:

    * Morals — all correct moral laws — derive from the instinct to survive. Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.

    * Correct morality can only be derived from what man is — not from what do-gooders and well-meaning aunt Nellies would like him to be.

     * A "pacifist male" is a contradiction in terms. Most self-described "pacifists" are not pacific; they simply assume false colors. When the wind changes, they hoist the Jolly Roger.

     * A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate,    act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

So far I haven't butchered a hog, although my cousin has a hog farm so it could happen.

I have "planned" an invasion, not sure how successful it would have been

I sing like a cat in heat so writing a sonnet ain't going to happen

No immediate plans on the dying bit

Doing ok on the rest.....