Marine Corps probe video showing troops "urinating on dead Taliban"

[Jarnhamar]

Reminds me (sorta) of that saying I mentioned here years ago that I saw on a cartoon strip.
Muslims apologize for tomorrows train bombing.
Except it's the reverse.


I haven't really seen many people cheering on what the Marines did. Pretty much everyone have agreed what they did was wrong.
I haven't really seen anyone defending them yet it's almost like the quotes from the American officer and presidential candidate are canned responses if that makes sense.  Didn't really come as a surprise.

 

[Good2Golf]

The Law of Armed Conflict, in particular Article 15 of the First Geneva Convention, 1949, is quite specific regarding treatment of injured or dead combatants:

Art. 15. At all times, and particularly after an engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled.

The Law of Armed Conflict applies to all service members, and thus is "in the lane" of each and every one who serves!

Regards
G2G

 

[dogger1936]

The battlefield is not pretty or honour filled as people like to believe.

Food for thought: How desensitized does a man have to be to joke around while urinating on dead bodies.

 

[Good2Golf]

It has nothing to do with being pretty.  Perhaps you are using the term 'honour' as relating to some kind of hard-to-attain glory; however, honour that requires professional soldiers to uphold the rule of law, including the conventions of the Law of Armed Conflict, SHOULD exist on the battlefield.  While I understand that battlefield stresses may clearly have influenced the conduct of these Marines, in no way were their actions acceptable.


Regards
G2G

 

[dogger1936]

I agree. It should not happen. However the video proves that it did.

Hence the question I posed.

How desensitized does a man have to be to joke around while urinating on dead bodies.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I agree. It should not happen. However the video proves that it did.
Hence the question I posed.
How desensitized does a man have to be to joke around while urinating on dead bodies.

Two stories I was told on this subject.
1. A friend worked with a man who was in Vietnam during the war in a civilian capacity.  He was in country for an extended period of time and spent much of it in the bush and at firebases.  One day he was sitting having a coffee at one such firebase, and witnessed a midair collision between two helicopters full of soldiers.  It appeared much like the movies show ie: lots of flames, explosions and bodies and pieces of bodies falling to the ground along with the wreckage.  He started to laugh at the sight.  It was at this point that he realized that was not a "normal" reaction to such an incident and it was time for him to leave the war and go home.  Which he did.

2.  In my HS there was a program where you would job shadow in a local business and get 5 credits as well as a small wage.  One of us went to the local undertaker for work.  He continued after school ended working part time.  If there were DOA at crash sites it was not unusual to have the undertaker pickup the bodies on site and return with them to the funeral home.  Bob said if you could get over the smell of the dead, you could get over anything.  One night he went to a crash which involved mother and young daughter.  The corpse of the daughter was wedged inside the car pretty hard.  Bob without thinking about it initially found himself with one foot on vehicle, both hands on an arm of the girl trying to pull her remains out of the wreckage.  When he realized what he was doing and how he was doing it, it was at that point he decided it was time to go.

Story 1 apparently took a couple of years to reach that point.  Bob, hit that point in about 7 months.  Everyone is different.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I agree. It should not happen. However the video proves that it did.

Hence the question I posed.

How desensitized does a man have to be to joke around while urinating on dead bodies.

Not desensitized. Just ignorant, oafish and loutish mixed in with a complete lack of moral character.

 

[vonGarvin]

Laughter is not necessarily a symptom of finding something funny.  There are varying causes for laughter, but the big one is for social reasons.

From the link:

...Contrary to folk wisdom, most laughter is not about humor; it is about relationships between people...

...laughter has a bonding function within individuals in a group...


We don’t decide to laugh at these moments. Our brain makes the decision for us. These curious “ha ha ha’s” are bits of social glue that bond relationships.

So, these marines laughing isn't, I think, an indicator of being ignorant, oafish or loutish or lack of moral character.  Their laughter is, I believe, an indicator of their wish to fit into the group, rightly or wrongly.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Laughter is not necessarily a symptom of finding something funny.  There are varying causes for laughter, but the big one is for social reasons.

From the link:

So, these marines laughing isn't, I think, an indicator of being ignorant, oafish or loutish or lack of moral character.  Their laughter is, I believe, an indicator of their wish to fit into the group, rightly or wrongly.

I wasn't speaking of their reason for laughing. I was speaking to the act itself.

 

[ballz]

Hard for me to add anything to this discussion except for my own curiosities, it all just makes me wonder...

Dogger's question of "how desensitized does a person have to be" makes me sit here and wonder how the book "On Killing" talks about people feeling so guilty after killing someone that they immediately vomit upon seeing the corpse they killed, and yet this happens. Not having gone through anything like any of this, I can't fathom that feeling of such heavy guilt, nor can I fathom this whole urination act.

I can understand laughter happening in almost any situation, if only as a "coping" mechanism... but I feel someone "coping" with guilt by laughing wouldn't simultaneously be urinating on the corpse...

TV's idea of the "social" connection makes a lot of sense, too....

Humans are just f**ked.

 

[OldSolduer]

Humans are just f**ked.

Maybe, but that's what makes us interesting. It would be a dull world if we were all the same, even if some of us do run off the rails.

 

[vonGarvin]

(slight tangent about laughter)
My daughter (15) gets nervous when she has to give an oral presentation at school.  As such, she will uncontrollably smile and/or laugh, to which her teachers will sometimes chastise her.  "Do you think this is funny?"  She then sometimes breaks into tears.  So, laughing in much more than finding something funny.
(/slight tangent)

 

[Kalatzi]

Texas Gov Rick Perry has rxcused the act as that of "Kids" and attacked President Obama of showing disrepect for the military.

"Kids" - Hardly, Where is he geeting this perspective.  I thing that is disrespectful.

In related news - The rock that he crawled out from under has demanded that it be disenfected and wants nothing more to do with him.

 

[vonGarvin]

Texas Gov Rick Perry has rxcused the act as that of "Kids" and attacked President Obama of showing disrepect for the military.

"Kids" - Hardly, Where is he geeting this perspective.  I thing that is disrespectful.

In related news - The rock that he crawled out from under has demanded that it be disenfected and wants nothing more to do with him.

Not siding with Gov Perry here, but you accupse him of being disrespectful for saying that Pres Obama is being disrespectful.  Then you say that the rock he came from asked to be disenfected (sic)?

What these Marines did was, I agree, disgusting and criminal.  But let's not all crawl on the "I'm so much better than he, who is like a snake, for he is judgemental".  Newsflash for you: you just passed judgement on Gov Perry, implying that he is sub human.  Does this mean he doesn't deserve the respect that humans deserve?  And is this because you don't like or agree with what he says?

 

[Scott]

Let's just stop with the ad hominem all around.

There's good discussion to be had here without it.

Scott
Staff

 

[vonGarvin]

Let's just stop with the ad hominem all around.

There's good discussion to be had here without it.

Agreed; and to make a point,I would like to point out one aspect of human behaviour that is being demonstrated in this thread, that was demonstrated in that video.  It is the psychological tool of dehumanising and homogenising "the other".  In the video, we see the extreme result of homogenising "the taliban" into a faceless collection of 20-something brown men who hate women, murder babies and yet can preach the Koran without even realising the message of peace within.  That "taliban" is no longer human, and therefore, no longer worthy of our respect.  They are less than human, and as such, we will mock them by pissing on them.  In this case, literally.

In this thread, the fingers of accusation are pointing at the marines, wondering how this could happen.  Most likely, it was a breakdown of leadership that failed to rain in the very human act of dehumanising "the other".  And it just happened in this very thread, the dehumanisation of "the other", in this case, Gov Perry of Texas. 

Folks, we (all of us) are doing exactly what those marines did: we are dehumanising "the other".  This doesn't mean it's right or even lawful. I would just offer that we ought not to be surprised, especially when we are guilty of the very same thing, though not to the same degree as those marines in the video.

 

[Scott]

Agreed; and to make a point,I would like to point out one aspect of human behaviour that is being demonstrated in this thread, that was demonstrated in that video.  It is the psychological tool of dehumanising and homogenising "the other".  In the video, we see the extreme result of homogenising "the taliban" into a faceless collection of 20-something brown men who hate women, murder babies and yet can preach the Koran without even realising the message of peace within.  That "taliban" is no longer human, and therefore, no longer worthy of our respect.  They are less than human, and as such, we will mock them by pissing on them.  In this case, literally.

In this thread, the fingers of accusation are pointing at the marines, wondering how this could happen.  Most likely, it was a breakdown of leadership that failed to rain in the very human act of dehumanising "the other".  And it just happened in this very thread, the dehumanisation of "the other", in this case, Gov Perry of Texas. 

Folks, we (all of us) are doing exactly what those marines did: we are dehumanising "the other".  This doesn't mean it's right or even lawful. I would just offer that we ought not to be surprised, especially when we are guilty of the very same thing, though not to the same degree as those marines in the video.

Great points TV. And we are already seeing the same in the Delisile thread...

 

[Jed]

Folks, we (all of us) are doing exactly what those marines did: we are dehumanising "the other".  This doesn't mean it's right or even lawful. I would just offer that we ought not to be surprised, especially when we are guilty of the very same thing, though not to the same degree as those marines in the video.

Right on, TV. However; if we as the sheep dogs guarding the sheep and protecting them from the wolves; we have to harden our hearts to do the necessary evil. Dehumanizing the Enemy has and always will be a a matter of course in all human conflict.

 

[The Bread Guy]

.... if we as the sheep dogs guarding the sheep and protecting them from the wolves; we have to harden our hearts to do the necessary evil. Dehumanizing the Enemy has and always will be a a matter of course in all human conflict.

Using that analogy, doesn't the threat end once the wolves are dead?  Does protecting the herd mean you have to piss on the wolves once the threat is neutralized?

Pissing on enemy dead (or any dead, for that matter) is wrong, period.  If these folks are found guilty in a military court of law, the stress that may have led them to make this wrong choice will likely go to sentencing, but it doesn't make the act OK.

 

[OldSolduer]

:goodpost:

Well said.