"jedi kicked out of supermarket

[gcclarke]

If taken to its logical conclusion your argument would allow anyone to do anything, legal or not, on the basis of religion.  Want to go to school naked?  Just found your own religion and include that in its practices.

I think the line has to be drawn based on how established a religion is.  To be considered a religion I suggest that it would have to enjoy widespread practice over a long time by people with an honest belief in its teachings -- otherwise it's just a club, or maybe a cult.

Not really. For any rule to be imposed that might violate some tenet of faith, to prove that you're not being discriminatory, you have to prove that there is a valid reason for the rule (IE Tesco wanting to cut down on shoplifters) and you have to be consistent with how your apply the rule. A "clothing required" rule is perfectly valid, and if the members of the Church of Jesus Christ Without Any Pants don't like it, they can feel free to go pound sand. However, if you decide to allow members of the Roman Nudists Church to go without any clothes, but require members of the Church of Jesus Christ Without Any Pants to wear something, then they would have a case.

And this is why Tesco could have some problems should the Jedi in question decide to sue. Because they have determined that it is acceptable to allow some Muslims to shop in their stores with their faces obscured, but have decided that would be unacceptable for members of the Jedi Church.

In any case, it would still be up to the courts to determine whether a religion is "established" enough, and frankly the last thing they should be doing is deciding what is a religion and what isn't.

 

[vonGarvin]

Not really. For any rule to be imposed that might violate some tenet of faith, to prove that you're not being discriminatory, you have to prove that there is a valid reason for the rule (IE Tesco wanting to cut down on shoplifters) and you have to be consistent with how your apply the rule. A "clothing required" rule is perfectly valid, and if the members of the Church of Jesus Christ Without Any Pants don't like it, they can feel free to go pound sand. However, if you decide to allow members of the Roman Nudists Church to go without any clothes, but require members of the Church of Jesus Christ Without Any Pants to wear something, then they would have a case.

And this is why Tesco could have some problems should the Jedi in question decide to sue. Because they have determined that it is acceptable to allow some Muslims to shop in their stores with their faces obscured, but have decided that would be unacceptable for members of the Jedi Church.

In any case, it would still be up to the courts to determine whether a religion is "established" enough, and frankly the last thing they should be doing is deciding what is a religion and what isn't.

Dude, get it straight.  It's "the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Pants", and "Roman Catholic and Apantsareoffit Church" ;D

 

[Flasbang]

They should consider themselves lucky he wasn't with the dark side or it would have been a massacre instead of a legal issue.

 

[vonGarvin]

They should consider themselves lucky he wasn't with the dark side or it would have been a massacre instead of a legal issue.

NEWSFLASH:
They have just released a video of the whole event here.

 

[Kat Stevens]

If taken to its logical conclusion your argument would allow anyone to do anything, legal or not, on the basis of religion.  Want to go to school naked?  Just found your own religion and include that in its practices.

I think the line has to be drawn based on how established a religion is.  To be considered a religion I suggest that it would have to enjoy widespread practice over a long time by people with an honest belief in its teachings -- otherwise it's just a club, or maybe a cult.

Wicca has only been around since the mid 1950, and there are quindecadillions of those nutbars running around burning candles and banging tambourines.  They seem to be a pretty much "established religion".

 

[FDO]

We enrolled a Wicca. So my question is when we enrol a Christian we use the Bible if they want to, Koran, Torah, even used the Eagle feather. Not sure what we used for the Wicca. Okay back to the question, if we enrol a Jedi do we use the script from Star Wars, do we have a small statue of George Lucas to bow to. If I'm in charge of the small arms locker what is the proper security arrangements for a light saber?

Muslims are allowed to wear the burka why not a Jedi?. The Muslim religion is based on a higher power. Jedi is based on a movie that was written in order to make someone a lot of money. Besides that I believe I heard that the Muslim Faith is now the largest religion in the world.

Sorry I don't buy Jedi as a real religion.

We need to get real. All we need is another Jimmy Jones!

 

 

[George Wallace]

We enrolled a Wicca. So my question is when we enrol a Christian we use the Bible if they want to, Koran, Torah, even used the Eagle feather. Not sure what we used for the Wicca. Okay back to the question, if we enrol a Jedi do we use the script from Star Wars, do we have a small statue of George Lucas to bow to. If I'm in charge of the small arms locker what is the proper security arrangements for a light saber?

Muslims are allowed to wear the burka why not a Jedi?. The Muslim religion is based on a higher power. Jedi is based on a movie that was written in order to make someone a lot of money. Besides that I believe I heard that the Muslim Faith is now the largest religion in the world.

They would have the choice of "Oath of Allegiance" on the Bible/Koran/Torah/or whatever or doing a "Solemn Oath" which has no religious connotations.

 

[OldSolduer]

A Jedi would swear allegiance on a copy of the Star Wars script....really do I need to tell you this!! lol

 

[FDO]

I can just see the media attention that would get when this whacko walks up to be sworn in dressed as a Jedi! Walking down the aisle with robes flowing out the back, kneeling before the CO and having them swear allegience to a military far, far away. Then right after heading out to the bar and watching the elephant band play. Afterwards getting in to their Ford Falcon and driving off. Oh that almost brings a tear to this old salts eye!! 

 

[PMedMoe]

Hey look, even Obama's a "practicing" Jedi!!

;D

 

[gcclarke]

Well, if Obama's a practicing Jedi, I guess it'd be cool to admit that I am as well. So, here's a picture of the dog tags that I had made up.

Font's a bit off, but oh well.

 

[danchapps]

If I'm in charge of the small arms locker what is the proper security arrangements for a light saber?

Well, my vault has racks for the C6, C7, C9, Carl G, 9 mm. I don't think it would be that hard to have a toy box bolted to the floor. Also, we DO in fact have light sabers in the CFSS!

 

[Maelstrom]

I feel my beliefs would be closer to Jedism/Taoism/Buddhism, than the mono-theological religions.


    There is no emotion, there is peace.
    There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
    There is no passion, there is serenity.
    There is no death, there is the Force.
          - The Jedi Code



All religions have a beginning, and this may be the start of our planets. Remember its "a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away." 

 

[CEEBEE501]

The British police has jedi.  http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10222119-71.html

Also silly question but that little anonymous survey/census that I filled out while I was in Kingston, do I get to do it again in a few years, cause I know what im writing for religion next time  ;D 

 

[owa]

It seems unfair to not allow him the right to wear a hood.  They presumeably allow Burqas.

With that said, this "religion" isn't that much different from any other religion...  Gets its beginnings from a good story, and a couple of people who were considered loopy and/or crazy for their time; with a few people finding them right.  I'm not trying to be offensive to others religions, but there's some people who seem to have something against this man's religion, but if you know some Religious history, you'd know there was a lot of condescending attitudes in the beginnings of some of todays biggest religions.

Anyway, I digress.  I read in this thread someone using some form of slippery slope argument about how if we keep allowing these flimsy religions rights, we'll suddenly see people wanting to go to school naked!  I won't bother arguing directly against that claim, but I will state that it's an unfair argument to use in this circumstance...  The guy just wants to wear a hood.  There's about 500,000 people in this Religion, and for all intents and purposes, the religion is peaceful and has a good message.  Perhaps they're misguided, but they could be doing worse things with their time.  A hood harms no one, and I see no reason why a Burqa would be okay and a hood would not be.

 

[FDO]

I have to wonder how many of the 500,000 are actually "practicing" their religion and how many just put it down because it was the thing to do at the time. The other thing we need to look at is can we call a Star Wars conference a "Religious Retreat" or "pilgimage". There are Star Trek conventions so can I wear a pair of high black boots and a cool red uniform. Wait scratch the red one they always get killed first. I want a yellow one, and use that as a religion? The "Federation" has the "Prime Directive". Christianity has one too, "Do unto others.. ' Where do we draw the line at what is and what isn't a religion?

 

[Kat Stevens]

We don't.  As long as you are obeying the law of the land, and not doing any harm to anyone, I don't care if your belief system involves praying to a grilled cheese sandwich.  Ain't freedom wonderful?

 

[Neill McKay]

It seems unfair to not allow him the right to wear a hood.  They presumeably allow Burqas.

I don't think it's been mentioned in this discussion, but there is a reluctance in the UK to allow people to wear their hoods up in stores and such because they have been used to conceal the identities of criminals in a number of robberies.  Most such robbers wear hoodies, of course, not Jedi robes.

I don't necessarily agree with making people take off their hoods for that reason, but for good or ill that is the reason.

With that said, this "religion" isn't that much different from any other religion...  Gets its beginnings from a good story, and a couple of people who were considered loopy and/or crazy for their time; with a few people finding them right.

That's correct.  The challenge is to find the point at which it goes from a couple of loopy guys to a community of people who have a genuine belief in the religion they espouse.  Something tells me that a significant number of people -- not necessarily all of them -- who report their religion as "Jedi" are Star Wars fans having a bit of fun.

I read in this thread someone using some form of slippery slope argument about how if we keep allowing these flimsy religions rights, we'll suddenly see people wanting to go to school naked!  I won't bother arguing directly against that claim, but I will state that it's an unfair argument to use in this circumstance...

That was probably me.  My argument wasn't really that people will want to go to school naked.  My point is that there has to be some kind of threshold to be crossed before a religion can be used in a freedom of religion argument, otherwise any number of people may, and in our rights-based culture probably will, claim all sorts of silly accommodations on that ground.  We've already seen the Charter of Rights used in ways that its authors probably didn't anticipate.

In my opinion, "I want to wear my hood in contravention of your store's policy because my religion requires me to wear it" is a flimsy argument -- until that religion gains the critical mass to be accepted by the public as a religion.  I would suggest that "Jedi" is not there yet.

 

[FDO]

One thing we failed to look at is one of our freedoms is the right to shop where we want. If a store has a policy I don't agree with then I'll shop somewhere else.

I agree with the no hoodie rule as it does hide the face of someone who maybe in to rob the place. On the other hand from what I recall of Star Wars all the Jedi's wore their hoods back so you could see their faces. I don't have an issue with that. Doing that should apease (?) both sides. The camera can see you face and you get to wear your hood as per your religious beliefs.

How's that for a truly Canadian solution?

 

[PMedMoe]

Sadly, this comic reminds me of the military as well.  :-\