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Israel strikes Hard at Hamas In Gaza- Dec/ 27/ 2008

Nauticus said:
1. I have to agree, but I also stress that there is no excuse for civilian casualties.

2. I haven't been there, so I cannot truthfully comment on the realities of this.

3. Despite who started what, there should be a response by the international community not only to these indiscriminate airstrikes, but also to Hamas' rocket attacks on civilians.

1. Start doing airstrikes in built up areas, even with smart bombs there is bound to be civilian casualties, thats WAR and the nature of the beast. Remember these civilian casualties are not deliberate, and are not the targets. Don't be so niaive or misled, think with your brain not your heart.

2. Exactly.

3. What can we do as a whole? Israel has a right to defend itself from attacks KILLING their citizens. We have no right to stop a nation from lawfully defending itself, especially when dealing with an Enemy who wants you completly wiped off the planet. Israel should be commended for fighting back, and Hamas should be condemmed for there ongoing attacks on civilian areas. If Hamas would not have launched their attacks, all killed both uniformed and civilian would be alive right now.

Hamas is to blame. Their blood is on all casualties from this raid. Israel attacked a military target, and rightfully so.

OWDU


 
Overwatch Downunder said:
1. Start doing airstrikes in built up areas, even with smart bombs there is bound to be civilian casualties, thats WAR and the nature of the beast. Remember these civilian casualties are not deliberate, and are not the targets. Don't be so niaive or misled, think with your brain not your heart.

2. Exactly.

3. What can we do as a whole? Israel has a right to defend itself from attacks KILLING their citizens. We have no right to stop a nation from lawfully defending itself, especially when dealing with an Enemy who wants you completly wiped off the planet. Israel should be commended for fighting back, and Hamas should be condemmed for there ongoing attacks on civilian areas. If Hamas would not have launched their attacks, all killed both uniformed and civilian would be alive right now.

Hamas is to blame. Their blood is on all casualties from this raid. Israel attacked a military target, and rightfully so.

OWDU
Well, like I said, I pretty much agree with you. I'm aware that civilian casualties happen in war, but what sounds like indiscriminate bombing takes no regard to civilian deaths. I know civilians die in war, but I still feel that some measures should be taken to try and avoid it. After all, that is what separates Hamas and Israel as a terrorist organization and a civilized nation.

But I also understand that Hamas is to blame. My point, which I realize I didn't actually outline clearly, was that this has been going on for years now and many, many people have died as a result of it. Although Hamas is to blame, something more has to be done. Launching rockets at Israel and them bombing Gaza Strip isn't really solving a whole lot, and we all know that this will continue to go back and forth for years to come. I think that's a bad thing, so the international community should at the very least support a truce before this goes on repeat for many more years to come.

I'm not anti-war at all, but I do feel that other measures could be considered when war isn't actually solving the problem, like in this case.
 
Gaza was attacked for its command and control centres.  There was no indiscriminate bombing like you say, and wear did you hear that?

This war will continue to rage for 100s of years, and it  has so, not like how you mention its been a short term thing.

What type of measures are you talking about, maybe a big group hug and an I am sorry? If only it was that simple.
 
I think that Nauticus meant that more permant measures should be taken against Hamas, replicating with bombings, as justified as it may be will only validate the view that the Palestinians have of the Israelis and give strenght to the Hamas. A way must be found to weaken Hamas.
 
The Israelis are using the perfect tool to deal with Hamas - military force. Note that most arab governments have blamed the Israeli response on Hamas. They broke their own truce by lobbing 200 rockets into Israel last week. Israel thinks they have taken out half of Hamas' stockpile of rockets. The best way to procede is with a ground invasion.
 
The incongruous said:
I think that Nauticus meant that more permant measures should be taken against Hamas, replicating with bombings, as justified as it may be will only validate the view that the Palestinians have of the Israelis and give strenght to the Hamas. A way must be found to weaken Hamas.

This there anyway to "blockade" them?
 
The incongruous said:
I think that Nauticus meant that more permant measures should be taken against Hamas, replicating with bombings, as justified as it may be will only validate the view that the Palestinians have of the Israelis and give strenght to the Hamas. A way must be found to weaken Hamas.

You convince the Palestinians that their innocent children will continue to be killed, as long as they allow Hamas, Hezbolah, or any of these other organizations, to launch rockets into Israel, killing their innocent children.
 
Overwatch Downunder said:
Gaza was attacked for its command and control centres.  There was no indiscriminate bombing like you say, and wear did you hear that?

This war will continue to rage for 100s of years, and it  has so, not like how you mention its been a short term thing.

What type of measures are you talking about, maybe a big group hug and an I am sorry? If only it was that simple.
Please, use your head next time, and a little common sense.

1. Israel claims they attacked Hamas security centres. Logically, though, if the United States can accidently bomb a school of children, I'm willing to imagine Israel is more likely going to accidently do that. I'm not blaming Israel, don't get me wrong - but I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't believe that Hamas bombing Israeli citizens justifies Israel bombing Hamas civilians, in the same sense that the USA couldn't bomb Iraq's cities after the attack in New York.

2. Yes, this will rage on for many, many years. That is exactly what I said. This is going to be, and has been, long-term, so where you got that idea that I said otherwise, I haven't a clue.

3. What type of measures? There can be trade embargos (crippled Iraq), ceasefire meetings (if North and South Korea could do it...). My point is, since war has been fought over this for years, I'm suggesting war may not be the answer to this specific problem.
 
Nauticus said:
Please, use your head next time, and a little common sense.

1. Israel claims they attacked Hamas security centres. Logically, though, if the United States can accidently bomb a school of children, I'm willing to imagine Israel is more likely going to accidently do that. I'm not blaming Israel, don't get me wrong - but I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't believe that Hamas bombing Israeli citizens justifies Israel bombing Hamas civilians, in the same sense that the USA couldn't bomb Iraq's cities after the attack in New York.

2. Yes, this will rage on for many, many years. That is exactly what I said. This is going to be, and has been, long-term, so where you got that idea that I said otherwise, I haven't a clue.

3. What type of measures? There can be trade embargos (crippled Iraq), ceasefire meetings (if North and South Korea could do it...). My point is, since war has been fought over this for years, I'm suggesting war may not be the answer to this specific problem.

Given geographic density it is reasonable to presume that if Israel's targetting had been somewhat less surgical a hell of a lot more than 270 odd pals would be meeting 72 virgins right now.
 
Nauticus said:
Please, use your head next time, and a little common sense.

1. Israel claims they attacked Hamas security centres. Logically, though, if the United States can accidently bomb a school of children, I'm willing to imagine Israel is more likely going to accidently do that. I'm not blaming Israel, don't get me wrong - but I don't believe two wrongs make a right. I don't believe that Hamas bombing Israeli citizens justifies Israel bombing Hamas civilians, in the same sense that the USA couldn't bomb Iraq's cities after the attack in New York.

2. Yes, this will rage on for many, many years. That is exactly what I said. This is going to be, and has been, long-term, so where you got that idea that I said otherwise, I haven't a clue.

3. What type of measures? There can be trade embargos (crippled Iraq), ceasefire meetings (if North and South Korea could do it...). My point is, since war has been fought over this for years, I'm suggesting war may not be the answer to this specific problem.

I have more than enough common sense, thanks, and the targets hit were genuine, although unfortunate that some civilians were caught up in it.

Embargos don't work Naut, and only the citizens suffer, which increases the overall HATRED towards not only Israel, but the rest of the west, and generates an ever increasing extremist pan-arabic brotherhood, which fans more hatred towards Israel and again the west.

HAMAS must be stopped from future attacks, and this can only be done by crippling them with direct and precise military action by air or ground.

Right now, Eqypt has opened its borders and allah only knows what is coming in or going out.

The Hamas propaganda machine will now swing into full gear, with the showing of dead children and women, and they are even to be known to transport corpses to other locations, lay them out and film again. Thats pretty sick, but when you're evil and know it, they'll do anything to make them look like the victims, when in fact Hamas and facimilie factions in the region are the true root of bad news, and are nothing but a bunch of murderers.

The entire arab world hates Isreal, thats a fact of life, and Hamas conducting terror attacks ONLY against Israeli civilian targets is again ongoing, with 200 HE rockets just last week (these are not toys, many are over 3m long and 122mm in calibre, packing quite a HE wallup. I've been on the recieving end of these before, and not a pleasant experience). Now Naut, your post comparing Hamas's DELIBERATE attacks on civilian tagets to Israel's direct attacks on genuine Hamas military tagerts tells me you have some type of agenda brewing, or you can't really comprehend the reality of what is going on.

Considering the majority of terrorists who conducted the 9-11 atatcks on the USA were KSA citizens, why would the USA target cities in Iraq back in 2001? This just really confirms the level of knowledge you have.
 
While I do not always support Israel's actions and policies, Israel like every other SOVEREIGN nation (note my emphasis, because Israel is a sovereign nation whether or not the Arab nations wish to recognize it as such) has a right to defend itself.  It is rather hypocritical of Hamas to cheerfully lob rockets at Israel and then cry bloody murder when Israel reacts.
 
A couple of strike video released by the IDF. Hamas intentionally located their launchers/rockets in populated areas. Casualties to civilians is on Hamas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmSAp4Qt068&eurl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdvaKhaCBZA&eurl
 
A little roundup on news reports about the Israel/Hamas dust-up:

Gaza residents breach Egypt border; Israel bombs 40 smuggling tunnels -

Gaza residents on Sunday breached the border fence with Egypt ....hundreds have crossed the frontier prompting Egyptian border guards to open fire

Of the Palestinians killed on Saturday, most were militants. The fatalities included three senior Hamas officers: Tawfik Jabber, the commander of Hamas' police force in Gaza; his adjutant, Ismail al-Ja'abri, commander of the defense and security directorate; and Abu-Ahmad Ashur, Hamas' Gaza central district governor.

Militants often operate against Israel from civilian areas, and that has led to steep civilian casualties in the past when Israel has retaliated. Late Saturday, thousands of Gazans received Arabic-language voice mails on their cell phones from the Israel Defense Forces, urging them to leave homes where militants might have stashed weapons.

I find that last statement very interesting. Not exactly the actions of a "terrorist nation" to give warning that attacks are coming. Not the first time that Israel has warned civilians of incoming attacks.

ANALYSIS / IAF strike on Gaza is Israel's version of 'shock and awe'

Palestinian sources in Gaza report that 40 targets were destroyed in a span of three to five minutes.

Israel has assigned modest goals for itself: weakening Hamas rule in Gaza and restoring a prolonged lull along the border under terms that are more convenient for us following an internationally imposed compromise. Hamas, .... erred in judging Israeli intentions and has been dragged into a war that it doubtful wanted. Now, Israel needs to be careful in not falling into a trap of its own.

Analysis: Fighting Hamas in the shadow of 2006's mistakes.

The first wave of Saturday's air strikes targeted Hamas training bases, military facilities, weapons stores and other locations used by the Hamas security apparatus; Hamas has some 15,000 armed men in the Strip, defense officials estimate. In the second wave, targets included underground rocket-launch sites - where Hamas had readied rockets for remote-control fire. Other such sites, as well as weapons stores and factories, located near schools or on the lower floors of apartment blocks, were not touched. At this stage.
My emphasis.

Analysis: The Hamas army

Were the IDF to embark on a ground operation in Gaza, it would face an army of close to 20,000 armed men, among them at least 15,000 Hamas operatives. The rest are from Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Popular Resistance Committees. Since the cease-fire went into effect in Gaza in June, Hamas has used the lull in action to fortify its military posts in the Strip and dig tunnel systems as well as underground bunkers for its forces. IDF estimates put the length of the tunnels at over 50 kilometers.
My emphasis. That's the problem with ceasefires, the bad guys usually use it to reinforce their forces and to dig in deeper.

And finally; the usual suspects are out protesting Canadians take to streets to protest air strikes. I'm willing to bet that while Hamas was bombarding Israel these same people were cheering when every rocket exploded in Israel.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
And finally; the usual suspects are out protesting Canadians take to streets to protest air strikes. I'm willing to bet that while Hamas was bombarding Israel these same people were cheering when every rocket exploded in Israel.

Had a squizz at that link, the pic looks more like Palestinians living in Canada protesting.

The same ones who danced in the streets when 9-11 happened? 

Here is a quote from the link: "Blasting Palestinian music and flying Palestinian flags, the protesters — many wearing the distinctive black-and-white checked keffiyeh — marched through the city's downtown core as shoppers stopped to gawk and take photographs."

“They're living in fear,” said Abdul Elsalfiti of his family in the Gaza Strip.

The enemy from within IMHO.


OWDU
 
I wonder...Did they have them in the back in 2006 during the last Lebanon invasion too?

IAF uses new US-supplied smart bomb
Dec. 29, 2008
Yaakov Katz , THE JERUSALEM POST
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...ticle%2FPrinter

The Israel Air Force used a new bunker-buster missile that it received recently from the United States in strikes against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, The Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday.

The missile, called GBU-39, was developed in recent years by the US as a small-diameter bomb for low-cost, high-precision and low collateral damage strikes.

Israel received approval from Congress to purchase 1,000 units in September and defense officials said on Sunday that the first shipment had arrived earlier this month and was used successfully in penetrating underground Kassam launchers in the Gaza Strip during the heavy aerial bombardment of Hamas infrastructure on Saturday. It was also used in Sunday's bombing of tunnels in Rafah.

The GPS-guided GBU-39 is said to be one of the most accurate bombs in the world. The 113-kg. bomb has the same penetration capabilities as a normal 900-kg. bomb, although it has only 22.7 kg. of explosives. At just 1.75 meters long, its small size increases the number of bombs an aircraft can carry and the number of targets it can attack in a sortie.

Tests conducted in the US have proven that the bomb is capable of penetrating at least 90 cm. of steel-reinforced concrete. The GBU-39 can be used in adverse weather conditions and has a standoff range of more than 110 km. due to pop-out wings.

Also Sunday, Military Intelligence's Psychological Warfare Department broke into radio broadcasts in Gaza and warned Palestinian civilians not to cooperate with Hamas terrorist activity.

Palestinians reported that they received phone calls to their cellular phones and landlines from the IDF. The phone call, the Palestinians said, conveyed a recorded message ordering the immediate evacuation of homes that were next to Hamas infrastructure or being used by the terrorist organization.

On Sunday, head of the Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration Col. Moshe Levy was interviewed by several Arab news outlets during which he stressed that Israel was not against the Palestinian public in Gaza but was operating against Hamas.

Defense officials said Sunday that Israel would, however, not hesitate to target the homes of civilians who protected Hamas terrorists throughout the operation.

"We will go after every Hamas operative, no matter where he is," one official said. "We urge the Palestinians not to cooperate with terrorists."
 
The Gaza Strip is approx 125 Sq miles  (twice the size of the city of Washington, DC), with a population of 1.5 million. Densly populated, built up area with the terrorists living and fighting amongst their own large families. To date I believe there has been a total of 324 reported killed and 1,500 wounded. The IAF is very professional. Anyone who thinks that the IAF is targeting civilians is just plain stupid.
Did you see the film clip from Afghanistan of the school children walking past the SUV which was then detonated. The school kids were not the target, but the terrorists did not give a shidt they would be killed.
If you don't understand the difference between these you are stupid. If you are wearing a uniform, you shouldn't.
 
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-israel-analysis29-2008dec29,0,3905805.story

NEWS ANALYSIS - LA TIMES
Israel has learned from its failure in Lebanon

By Richard Boudreaux
December 29, 2008
Reporting from Jerusalem --
As they prepared for lightning airstrikes on the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, Israel's leaders drew sobering lessons from their stalemate against another Islamic paramilitary force, Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas.

In that setback in the summer of 2006, Israel rushed to battle without a detailed plan or realistic goals, and was handed its first failure to vanquish an Arab foe in war. Hezbollah not only withstood the 34-day offensive, but it also emerged stronger politically.

Faced with frequent Hamas rocket fire across its southern border, Israel planned its Gaza operation more meticulously, over nearly two years. As a result, Israeli officials said Sunday, their intelligence services developed a longer list of targets to bomb, enabling the air force to inflict more damage on the militant Palestinian group before Israel contemplates a risky ground assault.

And instead of boasting that they would "destroy" the enemy, as they did in the case of Lebanon, Israeli leaders set the more modest aim of "improving the security" of terrorized Israeli communities.

That less ambitious approach could make it easier for Israel to withdraw from the conflict on its terms, avoiding the kind of demoralizing stalemate that developed in Lebanon.

So far, Israel considers its Gaza offensive a success. Since it began Saturday, waves of airstrikes have destroyed dozens of Hamas paramilitary facilities, weapons-smuggling tunnels from Egypt and underground rocket-launching sites. Rocket fire from Gaza has diminished well below what was once considered Hamas' capacity.

Although many risks and uncertainties lie ahead, in particular the specter of getting bogged down in a ground war, the offensive has brought Israel to a psychological turning point, restoring a measure of the country's confidence in its capacity to confront armed adversaries.

"Hamas is dazed and confused and has no explanation to offer its people," Amos Gilad, a senior Israeli Defense Ministry official, told Israel Radio on Sunday. "But we must refrain from bragging and marking dramatic objectives."

Rather than remove Hamas from power, he and other Israeli officials say, the goal is to weaken the movement and demonstrate the price it would pay for continuing to launch rockets. Sooner or later, Israel hopes to restore and strengthen an Egyptian-brokered cease-fire that worked for nearly five months before it started to break down in November.

"The army doesn't even have the pretense of neutralizing Hamas' ability to launch rockets. We have tried that before and failed," said Alon Ben-David, military correspondent for Israel's Channel 10 television.

"This operation," he explained, "is directed at Hamas' motivation to fire rockets at Israel rather than its actual ability to do so."

For reasons that became evident during the Lebanon conflict, it is far from certain whether even that limited goal can be achieved.

Hamas leaders have gone into hiding but given no hint of backing down. On the contrary, they have threatened to wage suicide attacks in Israel for the first time since 2005, apparently by infiltrating from the West Bank or from Gaza by way of Egypt.

"The ostensible aims of the operation amount to requiring Hamas not to behave like Hamas: not to fire into Israel or target Israeli civilians or soldiers, not to prepare for such attacks, not to store or smuggle in the material for such attacks," David Horovitz, editor of the Jerusalem Post, wrote in a Sunday editorial. "And that is not going to be achieved quickly."

Israeli officials have indicated that the offensive could last weeks or months. But as details of civilian casualties emerge from Gaza, Israel is coming under international pressure to halt the operation, just as it did in Lebanon. Health Ministry officials in Gaza estimate that as many as a third of the dead are noncombatants.

And it remains to be seen whether Israeli leaders have prepared adequately for the complications that may lie ahead if their army launches a ground campaign against Hamas' 15,000-man paramilitary force, which has drawn its own lessons from Hezbollah's success in the Lebanon war.

Anticipating a Lebanon-style ground war, Hamas used the recent cease-fire to fortify its military posts in Gaza, dig underground bunkers, acquire a large number of antitank missiles and install them in foxholes. How much of that defensive weaponry remains intact is unclear.

Israeli analysts believe an Israeli ground offensive is only a matter of time. The Lebanon war demonstrated that Israel's air force alone could not stop Hezbollah from lobbing rockets across the border.

But analysts also agree that a ground operation in the densely populated enclave would be messy, carrying the risk of an even higher civilian death toll and heavy casualties to Israeli soldiers. Hamas, which is still holding an Israeli soldier it captured in June 2006, is believed to have plans to try seizing others entering Gaza.

Despite support across Israel's political spectrum for a strong response to Hamas, many Israelis are wary of a prolonged offensive.

"How many soldiers are expected to be killed in the first wave?" columnist Zvi Barel asked in Sunday's Haaretz newspaper. "How many months is the [army] expected to spend in Gaza, sweeping its houses and tunnels? How many Palestinian civilians will be killed?"

Reuven Pedatzur, head of the security studies program at Israel's Netanya College, said the longer Israel fights in Gaza, the more difficult it will become to justify withdrawing.

"Yes, the operation started successfully, but we need to ask ourselves how we get out and arrive at negotiations," he said.

Such decisions now rest in the hands of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Ehud Barak. Olmert had been elected just four months before the Lebanon war and later endured censure by a government-appointed panel for the way he and his top aides had conducted it. Amir Peretz, the wartime defense minister, later stepped down.

Disgraced by corruption charges and forced in September to resign, Olmert remains a caretaker leader with a major military conflict on his agenda before elections in February to choose his successor.

Israeli commentators who watched him announce the offensive Saturday said he looked more subdued than the overconfident leader who addressed the nation at the start of the Lebanon war.

"Olmert was a serious, reserved man, who has learned that some situations call for modesty," columnist Sima Kadmon wrote on Ynet, a news website. "His words lacked the grandiose promises made on the eve of the Lebanon war."


 
The Israelis are in a tough spot. Do they go all out and destroy Hamas or do they settle for an air campaign only ? If Hamas is in place at the end of the operation their reputation is enhanced. A ground operation by the IDF into Gaza must go all out and seize control of Gaza then they can figure out what they do after Hamas has been crushed. I just dont see leaving Hamas in place. If Hamas is destroyed then Israel would only have to worry about its northern border instead of a multi-front war.
 
tomahawk6 said:
The Israelis are in a tough spot. Do they go all out and destroy Hamas or do they settle for an air campaign only ? If Hamas is in place at the end of the operation their reputation is enhanced. A ground operation by the IDF into Gaza must go all out and seize control of Gaza then they can figure out what they do after Hamas has been crushed. I just dont see leaving Hamas in place. If Hamas is destroyed then Israel would only have to worry about its northern border instead of a multi-front war.

I think the only solution to this whole Hamas terrorism issue is to go in and take control of Gaza. There will be casualties on both sides but it's the only way to effectively disarm Hamas, airstrikes can only go so far.
 
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