Islam and Western Society

[LF(CMO)]

    "do unto others as you would have done onto you".   Probably the basic tenet of Christianity.   Easy to say and VERY difficult to live as every truly honest person will attest.

 

[winchable]

Judas, from the Greek work for Jew (Or latin, either way, there's no mistake it sounds the way it does)
Look at any painting of the disciples and Judas is invariably going to have, Curly red hair, a hunched back and a crook nose.
That and he betrayed Jesus, and until recently (and still by a good chunk of Christians) the betrayal of Jesus has been blamed on non-other then the Jews.
Once again, this isn't because of the texts really it's because of the people who interpret them, which is what I was driving at.

 

[canadianblue]

"That and he betrayed Jesus, and until recently (and still by a good chunk of Christians) the betrayal of Jesus has been blamed on non-other then the Jews."

I'm not the biggest christian out there, but the thing that I have to bring up is that it is widely understood now that humankind killed Jesus. Jesus was a jew, and so were many of the gentiles. It was a strong belief of Jesus to unite Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Goober]

The bible may not be anti-semitic, but it certainly does advocate murder for such "crimes" as homosexuality and bigamy.  ...

Are you referring to the Old Testament? As the Old Testament is overridden (for lack of a better word) by the New Testament as to how a Christian should act.

In regards to the Judas, I don't think his story is at all anti-semitic, his physical portrail is of one who is sly, and deceiving and corrupt. Jesus himself was a Jew as were most of his followers.

 

[Dogboy]

thats a big problem with most middle east beginning religions they all have a common back ground
thats is they all worship the same god fight over the same holey lands and have smiler history's and blood lines.
Jesus was a Jew.
what was Mohamed (is that right?) be for he made Islam
their is also sub sects. of each
Orthodox, and normal
Catholics don't even use the same Bible as most Cristian's
Mormons and 7th day people have entirely different bibles.
and then theirs Shiite and Sunni Muslims as well.
all thees groups have fought together and agents each other throughout history 

 

[Edward Campbell]

I personally find this whole discussion both mildly offensive and a bit puzzling.

I am not Muslim, nor do I have many Muslim friends (a few colleagues, etc, but very few real friends), nor do I have any particular brief for Islam or Christianity, Judaism or Taoism for that matter.

I don't know who Peter Fisher is, nor do I care, but I think his tone is unnecessarily provocative; it is the job of a columnist to provoke but it need not be done so that it gratuitously insults others as, I believe he does in saying e.g.

How much would we save in tax money if we simply outlawed this violent cult and called it for what it is? I don't care that there may be a handful of Muslims who do not subscribe to the violent nature of Mohammed and his writings. The fact remains that it commands and espouses violence and domination. So why do we allow it exist? And why do we allow it to be taught in our schools?

So, it is, to me a bit offensive ... but maybe I'm just too delicate.

What I find puzzling is why we, in an army forum, are debating it at all.

I think we can agree that there are, as I have said elsewhere, Arab extremist, fundamentalist Islamic movements which are our self-declared enemies â “ that is to say they have declared war on us.   We must and will defeat them over the course of a long war ... but we are not at was with Islam or even with all the Arabs.   Did anyone here really think that all Germans were slobbering brutes or all Russians drunken savages?   It is one thing for the popular media and the allied propaganda machine to demonize the enemy ... it is quite another thing, a dangerous and unprofessional thing, in my view, for soldiers to do the same.

To make matters worse the discussion, inevitably, degrades into religious slagging which does no good at all.

 

[winchable]

Good point ROJ and to add to it this debate has been done to death on this forum before in another thread.

Jesus was a jew, and so were many of the gentiles. It was a strong belief of Jesus to unite Jews and Gentiles.

About the Judas thing, this is a sticky point for me.
You guys are proving my point that people can go either way with scriptures. You've both taken the high road. But tell that to Mel Gibson, or the person who wrote the original "passion" play, for thousands of years the Jews have been to blame for Christ's death because people have chosen to interpert the scriptures in a negative way.
The story of Judas is a good example because as a result of his betrayal he is portrayed by many artists depicting the desciples as being a "stereotypical Jew"
A good example might be an episode of SouthPark, where Cartman goes to see "The Passion"....

Trying not to get bogged down in this one again but it seems inevitable that it should be discussed given current world events.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I have not even read the article yet but I will say this now,..........keep the discussion here on the article, if this even remotely becomes a he said/she said-type thread I will lock and delete.
Thanks in advance,
Bruce

 

[Goober]

... for thousands of years the Jews have been to blame for Christ's death because people have chosen to interpert the scriptures in a negative way.
The story of Judas is a good example because as a result of his betrayal he is portrayed by many artists depicting the desciples as being a "stereotypical Jew"
..

I see what you are saying, but thats just the personal agenda of the painter, or script writer to portray him that way, the original story itself cannot be blamed or called anti-semitic for how certain people choose interpret it.

In regards to the article, it was clearly written by someone who hates Islam, as emotion is shown throughout it. I find it an offensive article.

 

[RCA]

Intolerance (whether about politics, religion etc) breeds extremism which brings out the underside of mankind. Those that try and induce intolerance just propergate it and are no better.

 

[Dogboy]

its EZ to keep your people in line if you give them someone to hate more then ther Rulers 

 

[Sparx123]

This is a very controversial question.     With the recent actions of extreme Islamic Fundamentalists around the world, in Iraq, Spain, Russia and many other places and the fear of moderate Muslims to act against or voice opposition to the radicals, are the grounds for a 'Reverse Jihad' in the makings?

I don't want to call it a "Holy War" like the Crusades, where Christianity and Islam clashed in the distant past, but perhaps and "UnHoly War" in which all nations of the world....all religions; band together to totally end the madness and eradicate Islam from the face of the earth.   These fanatics have no compassion, even for their own religion, and keep them in fear, and attack any who are not of their faith; be it Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddist, etc.   It is not only the West who are becoming more aggravated by these terror tactics, but also the East (Nepal, India, Pakistan) who are also being targeted.   What will happen when the 'Sleeping Dragon' China is awakened?

Unless the moderates start turning in the 'Fanatics', are we headed for a major disruption of our societies?   Will we see Islam banned from nations other than those in the Middle East?   What does the future hold in store for us?

Hello George.
I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions many have on Islam. I my self am against radical Islam and those who misinterpret Islam with their crazy, aggressive, astray teachings. Islam preaches peace, and yes, I am sure you have heard it and questioned such "peace". You see, there are many extremists, like many religions, in which they brain wash young people with false teachings and misinterpretations in committing terror. I am Muslim my self and am against Taliban, al-Qaeda- and other cunts who touch western countries, specifically Canada. As A Canadian I will eliminate anyone who has harm on my country (Canada). In the Quran, We are told to love our neighbors, love the non Muslims, and especially love the Christians and the Jews as they are people of the book. We are told to NOT destroy holy places of worship such as Churches, etc, as the Christians and the Jews and Muslims believe in the same God. Jesus Christ is highly valued in Islam, I love Jesus! The "Father" in Christianity is the God we worship. Allah means God, it is just an Arabic word for God. The prophet once said, “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”
"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honor his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.".
"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall myself be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him."
As you see, Islam preaches Peace, Love.

THOSE STUPID, and I emphasize STUPID people who call them selfs Muslims then commit terror are NOT Muslims. They may think they are fighting for God and calling it a Jihad, but they are brain washed cunts who need to die. I am devastated and it angers me when I see those terrorists committing terror and saying its for God. They are surely the wrong doers.

I do hope I cleared up hatred or misconceptions for anyone. As a fellow Canadian, God bless everyone and may God protect Canada from radical Islam and may God kill those who DARE touch Canada or a Canadian Soldier, or anyone of our brothers/sisters in arms.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hello George.
I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions many have on Islam. I my self am against radical Islam and those who misinterpret Islam with their crazy, aggressive, astray teachings. Islam preaches peace, and yes, I am sure you have heard it and questioned such "peace". You see, there are many extremists, like many religions, in which they brain wash young people with false teachings and misinterpretations in committing terror. I am Muslim my self and am against Taliban, al-Qaeda- and other cunts who touch western countries, specifically Canada. As A Canadian I will eliminate anyone who has harm on my country (Canada). In the Quran, We are told to love our neighbors, love the non Muslims, and especially love the Christians and the Jews as they are people of the book. We are told to NOT destroy holy places of worship such as Churches, etc, as the Christians and the Jews and Muslims believe in the same God. Jesus Christ is highly valued in Islam, I love Jesus! The "Father" in Christianity is the God we worship. Allah means God, it is just an Arabic word for God. The prophet once said, “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”
"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honor his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.".
"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall myself be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him."
As you see, Islam preaches Peace, Love.

THOSE STUPID, and I emphasize STUPID people who call them selfs Muslims then commit terror are NOT Muslims. They may think they are fighting for God and calling it a Jihad, but they are brain washed cunts who need to die. I am devastated and it angers me when I see those terrorists committing terror and saying its for God. They are surely the wrong doers.

I do hope I cleared up hatred or misconceptions for anyone. As a fellow Canadian, God bless everyone and may God protect Canada from radical Islam and may God kill those who DARE touch Canada or a Canadian Soldier, or anyone of our brothers/sisters in arms.

Holy friggin' necropost there , Batman!!

 

[GnyHwy]

Yeah, that might be the longest one I've ever seen.

I think George may even have converted by now.

 

[George Wallace]

Yeah, that might be the longest one I've ever seen.

I think George may even have converted by now.

Nope.

Although Sparx123 professes to be what he claims, many more others do not.  Later passages in the Quran are far from preaching peace and love, in fact calling for quite the opposite.  This is what we are witnessing today, and our Western governments and societies are turning a blind eye to these developments.  Only now are a very small number of people starting to call attention to the warning signs. 

Personally, from all that I have seen, Islam is not the religion of peace that it professes, but the religion of "Death".  Everything seems to be all about "Death".  To "kill" a non-believer, no matter what their beliefs, even other Muslims, will make you a martyr and guarantee you a place in heaven.  To "die" in the process of "killing" a non-believer will make you a martyr and guarantee you a place in heaven.  To assist in the "killing" of non-believers will guarantee you a place in heaven.  The domination of the world by Islam is the goal laid out in the latter passages of the Quran. 

In Christianity to take the name of the Lord in vain is a no-no, but not a sentence of death.  Look at Islam and any caricature of the Prophet, not even the Lord, will bring about extreme violence.  Definitely not an indicator of "peace and love".

The Quran is supposed to be the word of Allah.  Who wrote the Quran?  It sure wasn't Allah.  It was men.  Just like the Bible, men scribed the text.  Men interpreted the words, then and today, as what they thought they meant.  God/Allah is not vocalizing anything.  Man is.  We all know how we judge people who say they hear voices.

I also question the double standards that Muslims have.  Their condemnation of homosexual acts, yet young boys are fair game to older men.  The attitudes and treatment of women in Middle Eastern and Southwest Asian Islamic states as property or cattle is far from what we would consider proper.  The history of how the Prophet lived and what he preached have conflicting moral and ethical values.  I question whether or not the Quran was actually written by a sane person with the way it swings from one set of values to the complete opposite in its procession from start to finish. 

This is a religion of intolerance, that does not permit the questioning of their Faith.  In my opinion, this religion is still back in the Dark Ages, where anyone questioning that the world was not flat was stoned to death.  It has not seen any reformation.  It is currently headed in the opposite direction; devolving into a very sinister religion of "Death". 

 

[GnyHwy]

There was a very good documentary on PBS, just the other day.  "Mohammad: Legacy of a Prophet"http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/index.shtml

No doubt, Islam (and most other religions), have been distorted to their detriment, and all because of a small minority of "assholes".

Ironic too, that the orthodox ones who don't distort or evolve, are probably an even bigger impedance to progress. 

 

 

[FJAG]

There was a very good documentary on PBS, just the other day.  "Mohammad: Legacy of a Prophet"http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/index.shtml

No doubt, Islam (and most other religions), have been distorted to their detriment, and all because of a small minority of "assholes".

Ironic too, that the orthodox ones who don't distort or evolve, are probably an even bigger impedance to progress. 

Saw the program and quite liked it except for one part. The show never really dealt with the issue that if in fact Islam as purportedly envisioned by the prophet is loving and benign, why so many of its followers gravitate toward the radical element and very few of its adherents take steps to criticise or stop such movements and frequently gravitate towards them (Egyptians voting in the Muslim Brotherhood is but one example. On the other hand we in the West are not immune from extremist religious views being foisted on us by religiously motivated electorates and politicians; see for example same sex marriage and abortion issues).

I think the program would have been well served if its third episode had been dedicated to the post-Mohammed schism between Sunnis and Shiites, the role of religious scholars in Muslim society, Saudi Arabia as an exporter and funder of radical Islam and the overall Muslim societies' re-action (or lack thereof) to the various extreme sects that are dominating the Islamic agenda. A program titled "Legacy of a Prophet" ought properly to have done so.

 

[Edward Campbell]

FJAG: I think the problem is not with Islam, per se, but, rather, with the cultures of many, indeed most of the countries that have embraced Islam. Primitive, barbaric cultures do not, cannot become enlightened through Islam (or through Christianity, for that matter). Our, Western, enlightenment was a reaction against much of Christian doctrine and teaching, and the enlightenments (I think there were two or three) that took place in China 2,500 years ago were reactions against Shenism (神教).

That fact that some Muslims pick and choose bits of their theology, as do some Christians and Jews, for example, to promote fundamentalism, and the fact that fundamentalism breeds extremism and violence, ought not to surprise us. Cultures that are weak, even retarded, that are, for example, misogynistic and condone slavery and female genital mutilation are nothing new - our great-great-grandparents used to live in one. Our great-grandparents and grandparents changed ours, although there are still pockets that need some final bits of enlightenment. It is my hope that generations of Muslims ~ possibly beginning in Islamic Asia ~ will bring religious reformation and cultural enlightenment to another billion of the world's peoples. Until then drones are nice ...

But let us not forget what the Christian reformation looked like ...

... it was not a pretty process and will not be in the 21st century, but it was necessary.

 

[Dkhorsand]

Changes to the Islamic zeitgeist have to come from the top; through a constitution that guarantees freedom of and freedom from religion, and freedom of expression. Unfortunately, I don't see any Muslims coming together to push the idea of secularism.

Two years ago, I was at York University listening to a guest lecturer who tried to demystify the religion for us a bit. He taught us some history, taught us the real meaning of certain Arabic phrases, but then unfortunately went on to give us his two cents on the subject of Egypt. He said that it only made sense for a Muslim peoples to desire a Muslim government (the Muslim Brotherhood) and went on to praise Egypt's newly formed democracy.

A smart man sitting near the front then put up his hand and asked "doesn't this monopolize all of the citizens of Egypt who are not Muslim?" The lecturer replied that this was a very good question but he did not have an answer.

We all know what happened/is happening to the regime that won the election, but the fact that they came in to power and were endorsed by white university professors brings up an important point: Muslims of any kind are not fighting for secularism in the Middle East. They are not interested in personal freedoms and equality.

We, who benefit from all the luxuries of personal freedoms should be advocating for an Egyptian Paine or Jefferson to write up a proper, ethical constitution. Unfortunately, even people in the west are apologetic to these racist, sexist, homophobic regimes, and they will call you a racist if you dare utter a word against them!

 

[Nemo888]

Saw the program and quite liked it except for one part. The show never really dealt with the issue that if in fact Islam as purportedly envisioned by the prophet is loving and benign, why so many of its followers gravitate toward the radical element and very few of its adherents take steps to criticise or stop such movements and frequently gravitate towards them (Egyptians voting in the Muslim Brotherhood is but one example. On the other hand we in the West are not immune from extremist religious views being foisted on us by religiously motivated electorates and politicians; see for example same sex marriage and abortion issues).

I think the program would have been well served if its third episode had been dedicated to the post-Mohammed schism between Sunnis and Shiites, the role of religious scholars in Muslim society, Saudi Arabia as an exporter and funder of radical Islam and the overall Muslim societies' re-action (or lack thereof) to the various extreme sects that are dominating the Islamic agenda. A program titled "Legacy of a Prophet" ought properly to have done so.

I am a lefty liberal, but I made the mistake of reading the Koran. Murder, genocide, wife beating, owning slaves, etc, etc. After his expulsion from Medina he became a right bastard by today's standards. Compared to who he was fighting at the time I would have signed up with him though. Great pay and awesome veterans benefits as well as the best family survivor benefits. He shared the spoils generously. He was a bit of a protosocialist in his system of law and taxation. Pretending it is a religion of peace is either incredibly ill informed or outright subterfuge.