Instead of MGS?
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Rooikat, Centaro, and pretty much any other 105mm that can fire ON THE MOVE and 360 degrees. Ooh, having more than 18 rounds on board is another plus... and a real live loader you can count on to not only load the proper ammo in a fraction of the time but is useful for other things too like security, eyes on, maintenance, comms ad nauseum.
McG
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What would be better for what? Are you asking which is better for recce, which is better as fire sp to infantry, which is a better tank killer, etc? What is your question? Has it been answered: New MBT(Leo 2, M1A2, or Challenger 2), new light tank (Stingray), or new DFSV (M8 or MGS)?mcnutt_p said:
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To clarify the question, what would be a better options as a DFSV, as I am trying to stay away from the MBT idea.
Yes some consider the Scorpion a light tank, thus some might consider that I am looking at it as that, but I am not.
Sorry for the confusion
mcnutt_p said:
Yes some consider the Scorpion a light tank, thus some might consider that I am looking at it as that, but I am not.
Sorry for the confusion
"Personally I was thinking of the Scorpion 90,"
When Canada brought over a Scorpion to trial in the late 1960s, BGen S.V. Radley-Walters, commanding the Bde in Petawawa (he was also a WW2 Tank Sqn Comd in Normandy), after examing the trial machine, said "What the f____ are you doing? We don't need that pile of s____ !"
http://www.seanmmaloney.com/Ch18RCAC.pdf
Read more Janes.
Tom
When Canada brought over a Scorpion to trial in the late 1960s, BGen S.V. Radley-Walters, commanding the Bde in Petawawa (he was also a WW2 Tank Sqn Comd in Normandy), after examing the trial machine, said "What the f____ are you doing? We don't need that pile of s____ !"
http://www.seanmmaloney.com/Ch18RCAC.pdf
Read more Janes.
Tom
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Oh man, if that were only so.
Sometimes I wonder what the hell Hillier is doing? He is after all a black cap. But he seems to be more determined then some to kill off the Armoured capabilities of our fine nation. Or am I out to lunch on this feeling? (don't all jump on that at once. :
)
I wish I could comment better on the choices. But I am going to have to sit down and look them all up to see what the differences are.
However, the MGS is not the way to go. At least as it is in its present form.
Sometimes I wonder what the hell Hillier is doing? He is after all a black cap. But he seems to be more determined then some to kill off the Armoured capabilities of our fine nation. Or am I out to lunch on this feeling? (don't all jump on that at once. :
)I wish I could comment better on the choices. But I am going to have to sit down and look them all up to see what the differences are.
However, the MGS is not the way to go. At least as it is in its present form.
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General Hillier is rebuilding the CF from the ground up. This is a bit like lifting your house and moving it to rebuild the foundation, then stripping the walls to change out the "knob and tube" wiring, add insulation, replace the cast iron pipes with composite material, new furnace and duct work etc.
At this scale, the MGS is actually sort of like doing the cupboards in the kitchen, so until a sensible command and control apparatus is installed, the "back office" functions like training and supply are sorted and strategic issues like heavy transport are figured out, I think we can afford to cut the guy some slack.
At this scale, the MGS is actually sort of like doing the cupboards in the kitchen, so until a sensible command and control apparatus is installed, the "back office" functions like training and supply are sorted and strategic issues like heavy transport are figured out, I think we can afford to cut the guy some slack.
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Zipper..
I like the furniture analogy..
Perhaps the problem is that the "IKEA" stuff is made in Canada and the best "Oak" stuff comes from Europe or South Africa. The idea of having the new cabinets is okay. Being stuck with a really dumb (no doubt political) choice of material kinda sucks. Sometimes when you start a renovation project you get part way through and realize that the material you chose is inappropriate. You just have to suck up the loss, go back to the building supply place and get the right stuff.
Oak, Maple, Birch, hell, plywood..anything but that bloody melamine!
I like the furniture analogy..
Perhaps the problem is that the "IKEA" stuff is made in Canada and the best "Oak" stuff comes from Europe or South Africa. The idea of having the new cabinets is okay. Being stuck with a really dumb (no doubt political) choice of material kinda sucks. Sometimes when you start a renovation project you get part way through and realize that the material you chose is inappropriate. You just have to suck up the loss, go back to the building supply place and get the right stuff.
Oak, Maple, Birch, hell, plywood..anything but that bloody melamine!
More so a 'family' analogy that a 'furniture' analogy:
"The Laminate stays! Aunt Edwina is coming for dinner, and if she sees we done tore out cousin Jubal's laminate, there will be the Devil to pay when we go to my mother's next week!"
Gotta keep peace in da fambly. Canada, eh?
Tom
"The Laminate stays! Aunt Edwina is coming for dinner, and if she sees we done tore out cousin Jubal's laminate, there will be the Devil to pay when we go to my mother's next week!"
Gotta keep peace in da fambly. Canada, eh?
Tom
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Hmmm...
So could we compare the MGS to MDF perhaps?
And Tom. I can imagine how you keep the peace anywhere let alone the family. :dontpanic:
You know with all the construction/reno analogies going around to compare what Hillier has to do to our military to get it back in shape, I'm still concerned with the Armoured aspect. Being ex-armour and all.
The MGS is NOT a replacement for the tank (if it even works). Converting 2/3's of the units into recce (and I still believe the Coyote is NOT a recce vehicle) while 1/3 is into something (I don't know what) that doesn't make a lot of sustainable sense. So WTF?
All the conversations on Cavalry (MMB) and turning the Infantry into light units makes alot of sense to me from so many different angles.
SO...
What are they TRYING to do? Whats the end product?
Inquiring minds want to know!
So could we compare the MGS to MDF perhaps?
And Tom. I can imagine how you keep the peace anywhere let alone the family. :dontpanic:
You know with all the construction/reno analogies going around to compare what Hillier has to do to our military to get it back in shape, I'm still concerned with the Armoured aspect. Being ex-armour and all.
The MGS is NOT a replacement for the tank (if it even works). Converting 2/3's of the units into recce (and I still believe the Coyote is NOT a recce vehicle) while 1/3 is into something (I don't know what) that doesn't make a lot of sustainable sense. So WTF?
All the conversations on Cavalry (MMB) and turning the Infantry into light units makes alot of sense to me from so many different angles.
SO...
What are they TRYING to do? Whats the end product?
Inquiring minds want to know!
"The MGS is NOT a replacement for the tank (if it even works). Converting 2/3's of the units into recce (and I still believe the Coyote is NOT a recce vehicle) while 1/3 is into something (I don't know what) that doesn't make a lot of sustainable sense. So WTF?"
- Well, after 1969 or so, all of our Cdn Regts were Light Armoured Regiments awaiting their Sheridans or whatever DFSVs we were going to get, and when that fell through, they became recce Regts, except for a flyover Sqn in Gagetown, and the RCD in Lahr. Still, all officers/NCOs trained to command tanks. After the AVGP Cougar was done, we re-orged back to Armoured Regts, Tanks in Germany and Gagetown, Cougars in Canada.
At least now, we have proper Recce courses being developed, Recce doctrine being bandied about, and a Recce veh with a turret that requires a crew Commander. So conversion to a tank will be much less painless than going from a Lynx to a Leopard (I bear the scars, trust me).
The CDS knows this and knows this well. In In 1978, he commanded an M60A1 tank in Fort Hood - one of his crew is on this site - while I was driving the OC's tank. He knows that turret trained Recce soldiers - with a good background in gunnery - can adapt to a new vehicle fairly quickly. So, if we have 66 MGS and 203 Ooops! ;D 202 Coyotes, that will allow us over 100 crews trained up at any time, and lots of experience at the RCAC school to help us convert if we have to.
Just before Gulf War 1, the Strathconas were 12 hours away from getting an order to go down to the USA to train on M1A1s to then join 4CMBG's Leopards in the Gulf. The Strathconas had a mix of Cougar and Lynx at the time. Niether plan happened, but we new that as far as trained crews go, we could do it.
The CDS knows all this. He knows that in the next few years it will be easier to have MGS/AGS/? and borrow tanks if needed, than have tanks and borrow a big bore armoured car if we need it.
Lots of nice to haves: I think we should have done what some Guys in Ottawa and Detroit wanted us to do in the 90s and rebuild the Cougar with a 30mm chain gun. Or put it on the M113s - like the Aussies, but - we can only afford a small fleet.
We may have been sold a pig in a poke with MGS - probably not, but, in any case, we will no doubt turn it into a much better car than when we got it.
Our real probs aren't kit - they are our out of touch Mil HR policies.
Tom
- Well, after 1969 or so, all of our Cdn Regts were Light Armoured Regiments awaiting their Sheridans or whatever DFSVs we were going to get, and when that fell through, they became recce Regts, except for a flyover Sqn in Gagetown, and the RCD in Lahr. Still, all officers/NCOs trained to command tanks. After the AVGP Cougar was done, we re-orged back to Armoured Regts, Tanks in Germany and Gagetown, Cougars in Canada.
At least now, we have proper Recce courses being developed, Recce doctrine being bandied about, and a Recce veh with a turret that requires a crew Commander. So conversion to a tank will be much less painless than going from a Lynx to a Leopard (I bear the scars, trust me).
The CDS knows this and knows this well. In In 1978, he commanded an M60A1 tank in Fort Hood - one of his crew is on this site - while I was driving the OC's tank. He knows that turret trained Recce soldiers - with a good background in gunnery - can adapt to a new vehicle fairly quickly. So, if we have 66 MGS and 203 Ooops! ;D 202 Coyotes, that will allow us over 100 crews trained up at any time, and lots of experience at the RCAC school to help us convert if we have to.
Just before Gulf War 1, the Strathconas were 12 hours away from getting an order to go down to the USA to train on M1A1s to then join 4CMBG's Leopards in the Gulf. The Strathconas had a mix of Cougar and Lynx at the time. Niether plan happened, but we new that as far as trained crews go, we could do it.
The CDS knows all this. He knows that in the next few years it will be easier to have MGS/AGS/? and borrow tanks if needed, than have tanks and borrow a big bore armoured car if we need it.
Lots of nice to haves: I think we should have done what some Guys in Ottawa and Detroit wanted us to do in the 90s and rebuild the Cougar with a 30mm chain gun. Or put it on the M113s - like the Aussies, but - we can only afford a small fleet.
We may have been sold a pig in a poke with MGS - probably not, but, in any case, we will no doubt turn it into a much better car than when we got it.
Our real probs aren't kit - they are our out of touch Mil HR policies.
Tom
ArmyRick
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"Our real probs aren't kit - they are our out of touch Mil HR policies"
Well said, Tom. Its true.
The armor corps is not dead IMHO. Its is getting a major facelift though. Tanks are going bye bye, like it or not.
I wouldn't mind finding out what TTP the LdSH are developing using the Leo C2 as a MGS (they are using the Leo in lieu of the actual MGS for now).
Hopefully they iron out the wrinkles that the MGS has. The TUA is good to go (I am qualified on TUA and I know its capabilities). I assume the MMEV will be something interesting (If nothing else, maybe an awesome ISTAR platform)?
Well said, Tom. Its true.
The armor corps is not dead IMHO. Its is getting a major facelift though. Tanks are going bye bye, like it or not.
I wouldn't mind finding out what TTP the LdSH are developing using the Leo C2 as a MGS (they are using the Leo in lieu of the actual MGS for now).
Hopefully they iron out the wrinkles that the MGS has. The TUA is good to go (I am qualified on TUA and I know its capabilities). I assume the MMEV will be something interesting (If nothing else, maybe an awesome ISTAR platform)?
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