Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[KevinB]

I don’t believe that you by yourself will be able to turn the Canadian society on that. No one will stand up against enemy bullets for free.

The other point is Canadian geography says that it’s totally different than European countries.
Fighting two World Wars on one’s home territory and also recent civil wars and invasions from Russia tends to have a different effect than sitting in front of the TV watching Survivor….

 

[WLSC]

The other point is Canadian geography says that it’s totally different than European countries.
Fighting two World Wars on one’s home territory and also recent civil wars and invasions from Russia tends to have a different effect than sitting in front of the TV watching Survivor….

As I said higher, military service like that is a cultural trait de caractère of a country. We barely have enough workers for Tim Hortons and the wage is raising because of that.

Once someone is in the military worked hours doesn’t count. We spend our life on overtime.

 

[Kirkhill]

I don’t believe that you by yourself will be able to turn the Canadian society on that. No one will stand up against enemy bullets for free.

If they won't do it for free, how can we be sure they will do it for a dollar?

I don't believe it was the size of the paycheck that brought out the volunteers for WWI and WWII or even Korea.

During Afghanistan, as I have been given to understand it, there was less difficulty in finding new entries for the Combat Arms, there was less difficulty in finding reservists willing to invest their time and lives assisting the regs. Likewise in Yugo.

Understand that I fully agree that any soldier deserves to be compensated for their service. I also understand that there is a need for full time staffing and that the further you get from the front line the greater the need for experienced professionals with particular skills. And that experience comes with time which means that the individual has a family and a life.

But I think we underestimate how many Canadians actually GAF about their country.

The Daily — Study: Volunteering counts: Formal and informal contributions of Canadians in 2018

Volunteers play an important role in maintaining community well-being and contributing to the overall Canadian economy. Their annual time commitments equalled more than 2.5 million full-time jobs in 2018.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

Edit: You know what sells? In my opinion? Utility and recognition. Being useful and being recognized. The old Fame, Fortune and Power game. Fame is a big motivator. And lots of fancy toys to play with. I don't think anybody goes into the CAF, or any military, seeking their Fortune. Perhaps a few too many engage for the Power.

 

[KevinB]

If they won't do it for free, how can we be sure they will do it for a dollar?

I don't believe it was the size of the paycheck that brought out the volunteers for WWI and WWII or even Korea.

During Afghanistan, as I have been given to understand it, there was less difficulty in finding new entries for the Combat Arms, there was less difficulty in finding reservists willing to invest their time and lives assisting the regs. Likewise in Yugo.

Understand that I fully agree that any soldier deserves to be compensated for their service. I also understand that there is a need for full time staffing and that the further you get from the front line the greater the need for experienced professionals with particular skills. And that experience comes with time which means that the individual has a family and a life.

But I think we underestimate how many Canadians actually GAF about their country.

The Daily — Study: Volunteering counts: Formal and informal contributions of Canadians in 2018

Volunteers play an important role in maintaining community well-being and contributing to the overall Canadian economy. Their annual time commitments equalled more than 2.5 million full-time jobs in 2018.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

The Army (or Military as a whole) isn’t seen as a charitable use of one’s time. In peacetime the CAF is ignored by the public (other than the occasional sexual misconduct incident other other black eye) and the Government is happy to let it rust.

Who wants to spend time for free doing sweet fuck all?
Those other organizations can at least show some sort of return for one’s time investment.

I think you are RTFO on the path you are going down on this.

 

[ueo]

It strikes me that even with the kit we have on hand it should not be beyond our abilities to field at least a Standard Light Division and possibly even a Standard Heavy Division (or at least a Light Division with a LAV Brigade and a Tank Bn).

Bells hell a company would push tp the wall!

 

[Kirkhill]

The Army (or Military as a whole) isn’t seen as a charitable use of one’s time. In peacetime the CAF is ignored by the public (other than the occasional sexual misconduct incident other other black eye) and the Government is happy to let it rust.

Who wants to spend time for free doing sweet fuck all?
Those other organizations can at least show some sort of return for one’s time investment.

I think you are RTFO on the path you are going down on this.

I appreciate that I a rolling a rock up hill but I think the course of action, whatever that is, that is currently being followed, if it is, is not in line with the wishes of the CAF or the wishes of Canadians. The Government, both political and bureaucratic, appears to have no wishes and no understanding.

In my view the error occurred in 1922 and again in the 1960s and again in the 1990s. In each case the CAF disengaged from the civilian population and explicitly moved away from The Militia - The nation. The original point of the Militia was not the Field Force and the Special Forces. The Militia was an inventory of every fit Canadian. Some could be called out in time of need. Some would volunteer, some needed to be compelled, some had to be coerced.

Those that had to be coerced, frankly, were a waste of effort. Some compulsion can be tolerated. But your best bang for your buck will always be the Volunteer - unpaid, paid or merely reimbursed.

 

[WLSC]

If they won't do it for free, how can we be sure they will do it for a dollar

Butter on the table my friend.

I don't believe it was the size of the paycheck that brought out the volunteers for WWI and WWII or even Korea.

Nop but war time is something else. To be able to absorb that many people in war, you need a well structure system which a slim number of free volunteer won’t put enough grease on the skid. If you take the Afghan conflict, it’s an excellent point in case, everybody was paid while everyone was/is a volunteer. I don’t think people GAF, but you need to bring butter on the table.

Edit: You know what sells? In my opinion? Utility and recognition. Being useful and being recognized. The old Fame, Fortune and Power game. Fame is a big motivator. And lots of fancy toys to play with. I don't think anybody goes into the CAF, or any military, seeking their Fortune. Perhaps a few too many engage for the Power.

I agree 100%. Add that to our systemic problem to admin enrolment, you have the reason we shrink.

 

[WLSC]

The original point of the Militia was not the Field Force and the Special Forces. The Militia was an inventory of every fit Canadian.

Since day one, since la Nouvelle-France, militia which was taken from the french Milice was to raise body of troop to fight in the way they arrived under the command of the Seigneur or is Capitaine. After the conquest it stayed the same and up the from 1812, the Fenians Raids and up to 1885.

However, having push away the modern ARes CAF cut its self from the population. They don’t see us at all. On that you are right.

 

[Kirkhill]

Butter on the table my friend.

There are many other ways to earn that dollar that don't involve getting shot at. Or having to shoot at people.

Sidebar - I think that more people are put off from serving by the prospect of having to squeeze a trigger than dodging bullets. A really good friend of mine, since passed at an over young age, surprised me when he revealed that his greatest fear was not being able to order his platoon to fire. And I knew him to be a soldier's soldier. He had fewer concerns about facing incoming, or even returning fire himself, than he had about being able to order others to fire. That kept him awake at night. And with his other demons saw him drink himself into an early grave.

Nop but war time is something else. To be able to absorb that many people in war, you need a well structure system which a slim number of free volunteer won’t put enough grease on the skid. If you take the Afghan conflict, it’s an excellent point in case, everybody was paid while everyone was/is a volunteer. I don’t think people GAF, but you need to bring butter on the table.

I absolutely agree that general wars are something else. And in the Canadian situation that personal level of engagement is always a consideration. There is no difference between your average Quebecer and your average Westerner in terms of bravery. What there is, is a massive difference in motivators. Or better, what there was. The modern West doesn't look like the West of WWI or WWII. We have a lot more Doukhobors, Mennonites, Mormons and Hutterites now than we did then. Women have a greater say in the direction of events than they did then. And our cities have a lot more new Canadians that weren't strongly represented then. The motivators are all different now than they were then.

Many are here precisely because of The Peaceful Life.

That doesn't make them, necessarily, less engaged, or even less willing to engage. If the motivation is right. There are an awful lot of those new immigrants who come from warrior societies. In fact many of the people that have come here have come here because of the impact of those warrior society cultures on their homelands. They have escaped their brothers and sisters looking for a safe haven.

Give the Liberals their due. That is what they have been good at. Keeping Canada as a safe haven.

The question is whether or not the game plan that has worked in the past will work in an indeterminate and indefinite future.


The other thing is, as you correctly point out, small wars like Afghanistan, are a different thing entirely. In some countries, like Britain, France and the US - soldiers dying in service to their Governments - often don't make the front pages.

I agree 100%. Add that to our systemic problem to admin enrolment, you have the reason we swrink.

 

[Kirkhill]

Since day one, since la Nouvelle-France, militia which was taken from the french Milice was to raise body of troop to fight in the way they arrived under the command of the Seigneur or is Capitaine. After the conquest it stayed the same and up the from 1812, the Fenians Raids and up to 1885.

However, having push away the modern ARes CAF cut its self from the population. They don’t see us at all. On that you are right.

T'as raison, toi-meme!.

militia (n.)​

1580s, "system of military discipline," from Latin militia "military service, warfare," from miles "soldier" (see military (adj.)). The sense of "citizen army" (as distinct from professional soldiers) is first recorded 1690s, perhaps from a sense in French cognate milice. Historically, the Anglo-Saxon forces that resisted the Vikings were militias, raised by counties. In U.S. history, by 1777 as "the whole body of men declared by law amenable to military service, without enlistment, whether armed and drilled or not" [Century Dictionary]. In early 19c. they were under control of the states, enrolled and drilled according to military law but not as regular soldiers, and called out periodically for drill and exercise and in emergency for actual service.

The 1777 US usage is, in my opinion, heavily influenced by the arguments of Adam Ferguson of Logierait and the need to maintain a martial spirit within every society, especially a civilized one.

 

[markppcli]

Being compensated for days of duty when you might have been paid at work, or getting paid expenses, is a bit different to being paid for working as a soldier.

Well they’re working as a soldier, and are receiving compensation in the form of money while they do it. If a volunteer firefighter gets compensated are they being paid as a fire fighter?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Since day one, since la Nouvelle-France, militia which was taken from the french Milice was to raise body of troop to fight in the way they arrived under the command of the Seigneur or is Capitaine. After the conquest it stayed the same and up the from 1812, the Fenians Raids and up to 1885.

However, having push away the modern ARes CAF cut its self from the population. They don’t see us at all. On that you are right.

Correct... no one ever sees us outside of our museum piece armouries.

We work 4 hours in the late evening one night of the week, and are in the field on an Army base somewhere on the weekends.

One morning a year they might see us at a cenotaph if they get out of bed to watch TV, or go downtown on Remembrance Day.

Those who argue that the ARes provides a valuable service 'Keeping the Army in the Public Eye' are delusional.

 

[Kirkhill]

.... Again how does their initial training work? If they don’t the majority of their guys trained via conscription, do they do a month of initial training at no pay? You seem to have this researched I’m curious.

The issue has always fascinated me and that has indeed caused me to do some research over the years.

You also went broad on Scandinavian’s ( I assume you mean Nordic and include Finland), and the Baltics. Yet you’re only responding with one example ?

I plead guilty.

Why my focus on Denmark? Because while there are broad cultural similarities amongst the Scandinavians there are distinct differences as well.

Estonia and Finland have a very strong Swedish influence. Denmark and Norway are similar but different. Latvia and Lithuania are tied to Poland and Ukraine as much as to the Baltic .... etc.

Why Denmark? Personal preference. I like their balance of things. Their ability to engage both a full time military, maintain the elements of a conscription system that is widely supported - precisely because it doesn't resort to coercion and is maintained by the willing contribution of volunteers.

And part of that ability to maintain a voluntary basis is that part of the load of national defence is carried by citizens willing to learn skills that help their neighbours in peacetime as well as supplying them with skills that could be useful if the unthinkable happens again.

How do the Danes make it work?

Free time.

5 weeks annual vacation for starters. If you are young and single and have 5 weeks paid vacation every year you can afford to give up 3 weeks to go to a military boot camp for a bit of fun and excitement.

If every village has its own community centre and sportshalle it is easy to find places to gather and listen to interesting lectures and enjoy some companionship with your buddies and neighbours. It is easy to find compounds to store civilian vehicles for emergency use.

There is also the "cool factor" associated with volunteering for rapid reaction elements and being allowed to keep your rifle at home.

More free time comes from limitations on work hours and free education.

In short, there is a lot to unpack there in terms of the way they have organized their society that has created a very interesting balance. Yes their taxes are high. But they get a lot of tangible benefits in return.

And I haven't come across many Danes that aren't proud of their countrry.



And you're not wrong. I can get prickly.

 

[Furniture]

I don't believe it was the size of the paycheck that brought out the volunteers for WWI and WWII or even Korea.

Depends on where they joined from, for many rural Canadians during both world wars, the pay actually was a draw.

My Grandfather and his brother both joined in part for the adventure, and in part for the money. My Grandfather got to enjoy his money and tell stories of adventure to his grandkids, his brother got a plot of land in Itlay.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The issue has always fascinated me and that has indeed caused me to do some research over the years.



I plead guilty.

Why my focus on Denmark? Because while there are broad cultural similarities amongst the Scandinavians there are distinct differences as well.

Estonia and Finland have a very strong Swedish influence. Denmark and Norway are similar but different. Latvia and Lithuania are tied to Poland and Ukraine as much as to the Baltic .... etc.

Why Denmark? Personal preference. I like their balance of things. Their ability to engage both a full time military, maintain the elements of a conscription system that is widely supported - precisely because it doesn't resort to coercion and is maintained by the willing contribution of volunteers.

And part of that ability to maintain a voluntary basis is that part of the load of national defence is carried by citizens willing to learn skills that help their neighbours in peacetime as well as supplying them with skills that could be useful if the unthinkable happens again.

How do the Danes make it work?

Free time.

5 weeks annual vacation for starters. If you are young and single and have 5 weeks paid vacation every year you can afford to give up 3 weeks to go to a military boot camp for a bit of fun and excitement.

If every village has its own community centre and sportshalle it is easy to find places to gather and listen to interesting lectures and enjoy some companionship with your buddies and neighbours. It is easy to find compounds to store civilian vehicles for emergency use.

There is also the "cool factor" associated with volunteering for rapid reaction elements and being allowed to keep your rifle at home.

More free time comes from limitations on work hours and free education.

In short, there is a lot to unpack there in terms of the way they have organized their society that has created a very interesting balance. Yes their taxes are high. But they get a lot of tangible benefits in return.

And I haven't come across many Danes that aren't proud of their countrry.



And you're not wrong. I can get prickly.

I've worked with the Danish Home Guard during various NATO exercises.

Nice people, really. But I would put them at the 'not even as competent as your average CAF Militia Rifle Company' level.

The rest of the Danish Army that we saw? Not much better IMHO, seriously.

And then there's troops like the Dutch (conscripted) Marines. I thought they were role playing a refugee column until found out that we were supposed to 'follow their lead' during a combined arms exercise. Total rubbish.

 

[Kirkhill]

Well they’re working as a soldier, and are receiving compensation in the form of money while they do it. If a volunteer firefighter gets compensated are they being paid as a fire fighter?

Fair.

But if they are only being compensated when called out what does that say about the need for paying a standing force?

Not all their call outs are compensated. Just as, in Canada, not all volunteer firefighters and emergency response personal are compensated although some are.

It's back to that sliding scale - spectrum thing. Or as I heard recently, we have become so used to thinking digitally we fail to notice that the world around us is still analogue.

There absolutely is a need for a permanent organization dedicated to National Defence writ large. There also is need for a standing force of Guardians to maintain surveillance and act rapidly to small scale threats.

I also believe that there is value in a well trained, rapid reaction force capable of deploying domestically which can, in part, be shared with other countries to assist them during crises.

Like many others I wonder about the size, nature, composition of the force, how and when it can be shared, how much of it can be shared and what constitutes a crisis.

Those are the questions I wish our Parliament would engage with.

As I say - analogue.

 

[Kirkhill]

Depends on where they joined from, for many rural Canadians during both world wars, the pay actually was a draw.

My Grandfather and his brother both joined in part for the adventure, and in part for the money. My Grandfather got to enjoy his money and tell stories of adventure to his grandkids, his brother got a plot of land in Itlay.

Fair comment.

I knew a chap from Nanton. A wee feller that described himself as the runt of the litter. In 1939 he joined the air force to get his teeth fixed. He traded that tooth ache for 25 round trips over Germany in the rear turret of a Lancaster. He survived. He was a small target.

 

[Kirkhill]

I've worked with the Danish Home Guard during various NATO exercises.

Nice people, really. But I would put them at the 'not even as competent as your average CAF Militia Rifle Company' level.

The rest of the Danish Army that we saw? Not much better IMHO, seriously.

And then there's troops like the Dutch (conscripted) Marines. I thought they were role playing a refugee column until found out that we were supposed to 'follow their lead' during a combined arms exercise. Total rubbish.

So how many Paras, or Bootnecks, can we afford? And with an all green-red force how much ground can you cover?

And I know that you have an enduring passion for crap hats, terriers and loggies.

So excuse me if I reach for the salt.

I would rather have engaged people assisting me than having them crowding the sidelines panicking.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So how many Paras, or Bootnecks, can we afford? And with an all green-red force how much ground can you cover?

And I know that you have an enduring passion for crap hats, terriers and loggies.

So excuse me if I reach for the salt.

I would rather have engaged people assisting me than having them crowding the sidelines panicking.

Broadly, conscript armies are crap.... we should never, ever wholly rely on that option as part of our national defence policy. If ever, IMHO.

The CAF already produces a high quality product. Let's do more of that, more efficiently.

 

[Kirkhill]

Broadly, conscript armies are crap.... we should never, ever wholly rely on that option as part of our national defence policy. If ever, IMHO.

The CAF already produces a high quality product. Let's do more of that, more efficiently.

And again...

I do not consider the Danish Army a conscript army. Yes. Denmark maintains a system of conscription. Just like the US maintains its Select Service mechanism - even as it doesn't use it.

But every person wearing a uniform in Denmark wants to be wearing it. And I would say the same for the Swedes and Norwegians I have met. I never met one of them that regretted the time they put in. Anymore than they regretted the taxes they paid. It was the price of being a citizen in a pleasant little country that wanted to stay that way.

The CAF is producing a singular, highly polished jewel of diminishing size. And it is slowly being ground to dust.

We have that luxury because, as everyone freely admits, we live in a nice neighbourhood with good neighbours.

Until you figure out how to turn some of the innate civic-mindedness to the neighborhood watch you will find that your jewel has blown away on the breeze.

And that means that you are going to have to spend time, money and effort engaging fat slobs that want to help but don't know how and converting them into useful feedstock that you can convert in jewels you can stick a berry on.

I know you want more money for better wages and better houses and more tools and better buttons and more soldiers .... and people keep nattering on about the benefits of efficiency but efficiency is a load of crap sold to the unsuspecting by consultants.

The world is inefficient. Many processes don't even achieve 50% levels of efficiency. But even 10% processes have a lasting impact on our world.

And if you got a 10% return on an investment in this environment you would consider that a win.

If I could convert 10% of the willing into suitable candidates for the CAF to polish I would consider that a win.

And that is the cost of doing business.