Infantry Vehicles

[Kirkhill]

Pierre Senior.. thought he died prior to the initial buy? Clarification pls!

Pierre Trudeau - PM 1968 to 1984
Laporte October Crisis - 1970

AVGP (Grizzly, Cougar, Husky) - entered service 1976
LAV-25 (USMC) - entered US service 1983
WAPC (Bison) - entered service 1990
WARV (Coyote) - entered service 1996
WIFV (LAV III) - entered service 1999
WICV (Stryker) - entered US service 2002
WICV (Stryker DVH) - entered US service 2014
WIFV (LAV 6.0) - entered service 2016
ACSV (LAV 6.0) - entered service 2020

I was specifically referring to the AVGP series which were acquired with the expectation of domestic service when the government reputedly didn't like the optics of tracked vehicles (tanks) in the streets.

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

Pierre Trudeau - PM 1968 to 1984
Laporte October Crisis - 1970

AVGP (Grizzly, Cougar, Husky) - entered service 1976
LAV-25 (USMC) - entered US service 1983
WAPC (Bison) - entered service 1990
WARV (Coyote) - entered service 1996
WIFV (LAV III) - entered service 1999
WICV (Stryker) - entered US service 2002
WICV (Stryker DVH) - entered US service 2014
WIFV (LAV 6.0) - entered service 2016
ACSV (LAV 6.0) - entered service 2020

I was specifically referring to the AVGP series which were acquired with the expectation of domestic service when the government reputedly didn't like the optics of tracked vehicles (tanks) in the streets.

i wrote a history paper in Grade 13, on the FLQ Crisis and that was one of the points the author of a book made. Tanks on the streets of old Montreal and inner parts of Quebec City did not make for good media attention. Wheeled vehicles would do less damage to the streets and fit better down the narrow streets in the historical parts of both cities. But I never actually found any pictures of tanks ( not apcs ) on any city street. I could not find out if tanks were actually deployed or not.

 

[GR66]

i wrote a history paper in Grade 13, on the FLQ Crisis and that was one of the points the author of a book made. Tanks on the streets of old Montreal and inner parts of Quebec City did not make for good media attention. Wheeled vehicles would do less damage to the streets and fit better down the narrow streets in the historical parts of both cities. But I never actually found any pictures of tanks ( not apcs ) on any city street. I could not find out if tanks were actually deployed or not.

"Tanks" not Tanks

To the media/politicians/civilians these are all "Tanks"

 

[Kirkhill]

i wrote a history paper in Grade 13, on the FLQ Crisis and that was one of the points the author of a book made. Tanks on the streets of old Montreal and inner parts of Quebec City did not make for good media attention. Wheeled vehicles would do less damage to the streets and fit better down the narrow streets in the historical parts of both cities. But I never actually found any pictures of tanks ( not apcs ) on any city street. I could not find out if tanks were actually deployed or not.

I'm pretty sure there were no actual tanks deployed. I am equally pretty sure that much of the press was referring to the M113s as tanks - armoured boxes on tracks. Close enough for agriculture and government work.

Edit: GR66 beat me to it. Tank-ish.

 

[FJAG]

i wrote a history paper in Grade 13, on the FLQ Crisis and that was one of the points the author of a book made. Tanks on the streets of old Montreal and inner parts of Quebec City did not make for good media attention. Wheeled vehicles would do less damage to the streets and fit better down the narrow streets in the historical parts of both cities. But I never actually found any pictures of tanks ( not apcs ) on any city street. I could not find out if tanks were actually deployed or not.

Funny thing. My very first operation, within a few months of being commissioned, was to fly as part of 3 RCHA to Montreal on Op ESSAY. We had not a hint of tracked vehicles. My troop was issue a brand new 3/4 ton and a brand new 2 1/2 (built in 1952 and sitting for 18 years in storage with 50 miles on the odometers and leaky seals). The only "armour" I saw were a pair of wheeled Ferrets patrolling the roads along Ile de Seigneur next to the locks.

I think there might have been a handful of M113s deployed from Petawawa on Op GINGER to Parliament Hill as ersatz pillboxes but that's all I ever heard of until some moron CBC reporter asked Trudeau about "tanks" in the streets.

Lord, we were as unoffensive as people in helmets with loaded rifles could be on the streets of Montreal. And quite frankly we weren't on the streets that often. My troop was quartered in a hydro station (with one detachment stationed in the home of an MP) and only drove twice a day to several guard posts of the hydro towers crossing the St Lawrence. The worst we did was drip oil on the streets as we passed through.

This whole tank and tracked vehicles thing was the figment of a few people's fevered imagination.

Maybe any of you other 1970 vets have some additional recollections.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Would like to see a Saxon like AFV based on a commercial drivetrain for the Reserves. Give it the simplest RWS possible or a simple turret. This will give them a vehicle that can be used domestically, UN missions and in support of the LAV's. It would be within the abilty of the Reserve to maintain with only incremental improvements in support, which is all we can hope for at this point. And if the poop hits the fan at least we have something better than a bus.

 

[KevinB]

Would like to see a Saxon like AFV based on a commercial drivetrain for the Reserves. Give it the simplest RWS possible or a simple turret. This will give them a vehicle that can be used domestically, UN missions and in support of the LAV's. It would be within the abilty of the Reserve to maintain with only incremental improvements in support, which is all we can hope for at this point. And if the poop hits the fan at least we have something better than a bus.

Zero point in adding yet another orphan to the CAF fleet.
Frankly I wouldn’t support any PRes equipment until 1) the Reg Force gets properly sorted out, and 2) the PRes structure is utterly revamped into a workable system.

 

[OldSolduer]

Zero point in adding yet another orphan to the CAF fleet.
Frankly I wouldn’t support any PRes equipment until 1) the Reg Force gets properly sorted out, and 2) the PRes structure is utterly revamped into a workable system.

Roger that - giving the PRes AFVs would be a silly thing to do. In fact IIRC one of our Grizzlys in 1 VP actually belonged to the local Militia Regiment but it was "loaned" to 1 VP.

 

[KevinB]

Roger that - giving the PRes AFVs would be a silly thing to do. In fact IIRC one of our Grizzlys in 1 VP actually belonged to the local Militia Regiment but it was "loaned" to 1 VP.

I don’t think it’s impossible to have PRes units get AFV’s. The ARNG has them down here and manages fine, and I think that proves it’s not beyond the capability of the PRes (albeit it is at this point in time)



The main issues I see, are 1) Reg units are missing major key items, and obviously need to be the focus of capital acquisitions.
2) Once Canada makes a decision as to what it wants the CAF (and for this aspect the Canadian Army) to be when it grows up, that then one would hope that White Paper also has a real plan to make the Reserves a viable entity, and including vehicles and the required supporting systems for those.

 

[Kirkhill]

Roger that - giving the PRes AFVs would be a silly thing to do. In fact IIRC one of our Grizzlys in 1 VP actually belonged to the local Militia Regiment but it was "loaned" to 1 VP.

That's where they went!

 

[Kirkhill]

Would like to see a Saxon like AFV based on a commercial drivetrain for the Reserves. Give it the simplest RWS possible or a simple turret. This will give them a vehicle that can be used domestically, UN missions and in support of the LAV's. It would be within the abilty of the Reserve to maintain with only incremental improvements in support, which is all we can hope for at this point. And if the poop hits the fan at least we have something better than a bus.

How about keeping it simpler?

Suburbans, Tahoes and Yukons, as well as Expeditions - all come in 9 seat variants. Add a 3/4 tonne trailer and Bob's your uncle. That transitions nicely into the Milverado, Colorado, ISV series of vehicles or any of the other heavy duty pickups.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Zero point in adding yet another orphan to the CAF fleet.
Frankly I wouldn’t support any PRes equipment until 1) the Reg Force gets properly sorted out, and 2) the PRes structure is utterly revamped into a workable system.

I don't think the world is going to wait for us. A fleet with commercial components can be maintained via local commercial resource while we build up the support network. I would also dedicate a Class B/C position in each unit to someone trained to maintain them and then add 2 fulltime positions for maintainers at the local Svc Battalion who can assist the unit maintainers. Hell we kept our 3 ton going for a long time including rebuilding the engine using Regimental funds so they would not take it away from us.
The painful reality is that the CAF may get sucked into a peer war within the next decade or less. I take an orphan fleet based on commercial drivetrains over nothing at this point. The extra manpower I suggested works out to roughly 200 new positions across Canada. It would take time to fill them and keep them filled.

 

[ueo]

Pierre Trudeau - PM 1968 to 1984
Laporte October Crisis - 1970

AVGP (Grizzly, Cougar, Husky) - entered service 1976
LAV-25 (USMC) - entered US service 1983
WAPC (Bison) - entered service 1990
WARV (Coyote) - entered service 1996
WIFV (LAV III) - entered service 1999
WICV (Stryker) - entered US service 2002
WICV (Stryker DVH) - entered US service 2014
WIFV (LAV 6.0) - entered service 2016
ACSV (LAV 6.0) - entered service 2020

I was specifically referring to the AVGP series which were acquired with the expectation of domestic service when the government reputedly didn't like the optics of tracked vehicles (tanks) in the streets.

Was the Course Officer for the Instructor/Instructor course in 78 or so. Combined RCR/8CH students at sr NCO level. Borden Blackbown with a staff of 3 MOWAG trained Sgts. Guess entered service dates are flex.

 

[KevinB]

I don't think the world is going to wait for us. A fleet with commercial components can be maintained via local commercial resource while we build up the support network.

That local support won’t exist operationally, so I would suggest it’s pointless, or even worse.

I would also dedicate a Class B/C position in each unit to someone trained to maintain them and then add 2 fulltime positions for maintainers at the local Svc Battalion who can assist the unit maintainers.

I think they need more - unless it’s just 1-2 vehicles. But if your looking at a Platoon or higher, you need to factor in the drivers won’t be available most of the time.

Hell we kept our 3 ton going for a long time including rebuilding the engine using Regimental funds so they would not take it away from us.

I’d argue that all you did there is contribute to the believe that units can be somewhat sufficient themselves.

The painful reality is that the CAF may get sucked into a peer war within the next decade or less. I take an orphan fleet based on commercial drivetrains over nothing at this point. The extra manpower I suggested works out to roughly 200 new positions across Canada. It would take time to fill them and keep them filled.

Give the CAF is short 10% plus (20% if The Big Cod is correct) that 200 bodies are not going to be able to be found or scrounged.

It’s still money, money the CAF shouldn’t prioritize to the PRes - at this point in time.

 

[Kirkhill]

Was the Course Officer for the Instructor/Instructor course in 78 or so. Combined RCR/8CH students at sr NCO level. Borden Blackbown with a staff of 3 MOWAG trained Sgts. Guess entered service dates are flex.

I could see that being right. The ACSVs have supposedly entered service but I wonder how many units have actually seen them yet. I think it would have been around 1982 that the Calg Highrs got their 4 Grizzlies - 5 or 6 years after the supposed entered service dates.

 

[KevinB]

How about keeping it simpler?

Suburbans, Tahoes and Yukons, as well as Expeditions - all come in 9 seat variants. Add a 3/4 tonne trailer and Bob's your uncle. That transitions nicely into the Milverado, Colorado, ISV series of vehicles or any of the other heavy duty pickups.

I love Suburbans, but they aren’t ideal for Conventional Force Operations. They make a great Domestic HRT vehicle - but the off road ability (even my Z71 version) isn’t fantastic compared to the Colorado type ISV.
I think the ISV should be no more than a 4-5 person vehicle though. It just isn’t big enough to effectively carry a squad based on what I have seen down here.

 

[Kirkhill]

I think they need more - unless it’s just 1-2 vehicles. But if your looking at a Platoon or higher, you need to factor in the drivers won’t be available most of the time.

Wasn't the original trade description "Driver-Mechanic"? The Driver was expected to be able to use the tool kit repair a disjointed drive-shaft.

 

[Kirkhill]

I love Suburbans, but they aren’t ideal for Conventional Force Operations. They make a great Domestic HRT vehicle - but the off road ability (even my Z71 version) isn’t fantastic compared to the Colorado type ISV.
I think the ISV should be no more than a 4-5 person vehicle though. It just isn’t big enough to effectively carry a squad based on what I have seen down here.

Not thinking about the Suburban as a tactical vehicle just as a local run-around that could also comfortably deploy Platoons between armouries and from the armoury to the field. They have sufficient off roading ability to handle cut lines and fire guards and are pretty good in snow. Don't forget the winch to get them out of trouble when the lead driver-mechanic drives farther than they ought to.

 

[KevinB]

Wasn't the original trade description "Driver-Mechanic"? The Driver was expected to be able to use the tool kit repair a disjointed drive-shaft.

MSE Ops used to (may still) get some beyond basic maintenance, as they had their own trade class beyond: Vehicle, Wheeled
But LAV Driver, or Driver, Light Track just hit basic maintenance, oil, hydraulics etc - fluids and filters and changing the tire/tracks.
Often units would have drivers help the Mech’s so you could pick up things - (which was usually due to lack of mechanics) beyond that nothing I am aware.

 

[Kirkhill]

MSE Ops used to (may still) get some beyond basic maintenance, as they had their own trade class beyond: Vehicle, Wheeled
But LAV Driver, or Driver, Light Track just hit basic maintenance, oil, hydraulics etc - fluids and filters and changing the tire/tracks.
Often units would have drivers help the Mech’s so you could pick up things - (which was usually due to lack of mechanics) beyond that nothing I am aware.

I'm heading back further in time to the days of the Army Service Corps.