Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[markppcli]

I don't think anyone is suggesting Canada develop it's own system, more that Canada should work with like minded partners to make systems not dependant on an unreliable partner.

Well actually GR66 did.

America doesn't have to go to war with us to screw us... Look at Ukraine. They provided systems and Int, then turned off the taps to get a trade deal. How would you feel about a future Canada's HIMARS being slow rolled parts/ammo because the president of the day decides they want a better rate on hydro from Ontario or Quebec? Now, take that scenario, and put in it the context of Canada being back in a situation like Afghanistan... We need the kit to keep our troops alive/fighting, and an unreliable partner decides to use that as a bargaining chip.

This is precisely what I mean. We have a poor relationship with the US right now, but it’s an anomaly in our history. We haven’t fought a war without the US since 1903. I’m all for us domestically producing military equipment, but I think we have to accept there’s probably a practical limit somewhere, and trying to cut out the world biggest arms manufacturer is probably not going to be effective.

We are already essentially entirely GPS dependant, and our comms are built around Harris Radios. If the us wanted to fuck is the kill switch already exists.

 

[Furniture]

Well actually GR66 did.

Fair, I didn't notice that.

This is precisely what I mean. We have a poor relationship with the US right now, but it’s an anomaly in our history. We haven’t fought a war without the US since 1903. I’m all for us domestically producing military equipment, but I think we have to accept there’s probably a practical limit somewhere, and trying to cut out the world biggest arms manufacturer is probably not going to be effective.

We are already essentially entirely GPS dependant, and our comms are built around Harris Radios. If the us wanted to fuck is the kill switch already exists.

I'm not suggesting never buying American kit, I'm simply suggesting that we develop our own arms industry, with other "medium power" partners, so we aren't 100% dependant on American kit.

Realistically, if we end up in a war alongside the USA as an ally again, they are still going to keep their guns and HIMARS shooting before they give us parts and ammo. If we have our own facilities making CAN/SK/Polish kit, we don't need to rely on the kindness of America to keep fighting.

 

[markppcli]

Fair, I didn't notice that.


I'm not suggesting never buying American kit, I'm simply suggesting that we develop our own arms industry, with other "medium power" partners, so we aren't 100% dependant on American kit.

Realistically, if we end up in a war alongside the USA as an ally again, they are still going to keep their guns and HIMARS shooting before they give us parts and ammo. If we have our own facilities making CAN/SK/Polish kit, we don't need to rely on the kindness of America to keep fighting.

We will never buy enough to keep production open. Especially on expensive, niche products like HIMARS, or what ever other SSM / MLRS we procure. If Korea wants to build production facilities here to save on shipping g to Europe the. Maybe but they’re already building them in Poland so doubtful.

 

[Furniture]

We will never buy enough to keep production open. Especially on expensive, niche products like HIMARS, or what ever other SSM / MLRS we procure. If Korea wants to build production facilities here to save on shipping g to Europe the. Maybe but they’re already building them in Poland so doubtful.

The more that other countries make it, the less likely we are to be at the end of the line for parts/ammo...

We buys ESSMs from America, but we are also a major partner in developing them. We should be doing that with people other than America, even if we decide to be continue to be cheap with kit.

 

[markppcli]

If we want strategic independence we need to start with getting on Galileo instead of GPS, and adopting a whole news comms infostructure. Without that it’s largely irrelevant if the GOS guided missile gets delivered or not.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Fair, I didn't notice that.


I'm not suggesting never buying American kit, I'm simply suggesting that we develop our own arms industry, with other "medium power" partners, so we aren't 100% dependant on American kit.

Realistically, if we end up in a war alongside the USA as an ally again, they are still going to keep their guns and HIMARS shooting before they give us parts and ammo. If we have our own facilities making CAN/SK/Polish kit, we don't need to rely on the kindness of America to keep fighting.

I’m starting to like the trifecta of SK/PL/CA.
We have stood shoulder to shoulder with them in the past and have bled with them in the past. They were reliable enough in the past to do then, maybe it’s time to see if we can join with them again.

 

[GR66]

Well actually GR66 did.

What I'm actually suggesting is that we have a hierarchy of preferences in our procurement. Each individual item will have to be reviewed to see which actually makes sense:

1. 100% Canadian IP and produced in Canada
2. Shared IP w/foreign partners and produced in Canada
3. Shared IP w/foreign partners and produced offshore
4. Foreign IP and produced in Canada
5. Foreign IP and produced offshore

I would suggest that items that we use/consume in bulk quantities as well as those items that are absolutely critical to our ability to operate independently we should aim to have as close to the top of the list as practical. Of course there are items/technologies where it simply doesn't make sense for us to develop/produce domestically due to either the complexity, cost or low volumes we would need - 5th/6th Generation Fighter aircraft for example. However, we could potentially invest heavily into research and developement of key individual components of those products so that there is at least some mutual dependence between ourselves and the country producing the final product.

This is precisely what I mean. We have a poor relationship with the US right now, but it’s an anomaly in our history. We haven’t fought a war without the US since 1903. I’m all for us domestically producing military equipment, but I think we have to accept there’s probably a practical limit somewhere, and trying to cut out the world biggest arms manufacturer is probably not going to be effective.

We are already essentially entirely GPS dependant, and our comms are built around Harris Radios. If the us wanted to fuck is the kill switch already exists.

I agree that our relationship with the US will likely improve post-Trump but that doesn't mean we should assume that means they won't at times act against our best interests. The US is currently an extremely prosperous nation but there are potential serious issues brewing that could make them inclined to be more confrontational with Canada. Depletion of their water resources (both in changing precipitation patterns reducing the flow of some key rivers as well as the drawing down of the aquifers that support much of their agriculture) for example could lead them to push for major water diversion from the Great Lakes, or demands for a greater share of the water flow from rivers originating in Canada. Our interests will not always align.

 

[MilEME09]

gn IP and produced offshore
I would suggest that items that we use/consume in bulk quantities as well as those items that are absolutely critical to our ability to operate independently we should aim to have as close to the top of the list as practical. Of course there are items/technologies where it simply doesn't make sense for us to develop/produce domestically due to either the complexity, cost or low volumes we would need - 5th/6th Generation Fighter aircraft for example. However, we could potentially invest heavily into research and developement of key individual components of those products so that there is at least some mutual dependence between ourselves and the country producing the final product.

I agree, most importantly we need barrel manufacturing capabilities to be restored, not just ammo

 

[Underway]

If we were smart (and we aren't), we'd maybe team up with Poland and SK to make non-ITAR, "domestic" systems based on the lessons learned from the American kit we all own.

Obviously there are IP issues to be overcome, but I'm pretty sure three relatively wealthy world powers could come up with solutions as a team. Maybe make the basis of the arrangement a non-limited use of whatever technology we co-develop. That way none of the players are bound by local politics in the other countries.

That doesn't sound smart, that sounds like industrial welfare, and more like the ridiculous Euro procurement processes for their "joint" ships and aircraft.

Remember the Leo 1 targeting system? That had to have sandbags on top so the heat of the vehicle wouldn't warp the steel and thus ruining the targeting? Yah that was a Canadian only procurement. Great job team. We bought crappy stuff because we forced it to be Canadian.

Building under license or having the company build a factory here is far better than forcing a Canadian solution on an already working system.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I agree, most importantly we need barrel manufacturing capabilities to be restored, not just ammo

Many a machine shop in the Windsor/Essex County would love to have this opportunity.

These guys instantly come to my mind. Home grown.

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