Incentive Pay Category For Cadets Joining The CF

[aesop081]

would you rather have a new recruit to the CF who knows the rank system, and knows how to follow orders and show respect to the training cadre? or would you rather have a mouthy little bugger who doesn't respect any form of authority?

I've instructed ex-cadets....i'll take the second type you mention............he/she eventualy learns to keep his/her mouth shut !!

 

[ouyin2000]

Then you do that. I still think the pay incentive is a good idea.

 

[Pea]

Being a Cadet prior to joining the CF doesn't have benefits for the CF. I am a past cadet in the recruiting process, and I will be receiving this pay incentive upon entry. Yes this is a bonus for me, but didn't have any bearing on my decision to join. Lots of research into the CF and the MOC I have chosen to go for is what has caused me to want to join.

I do think Cadets has provided a little knowledge that will help me at first, like rank structure and uniform prep skills. However, these are small things that I would have learned at BMQ anyways. I am definitely going to go into it with a clean slate, and learn everything just like everyone else.

 

[geo]

card..... you'll be entitled to this "bonus" 6 months after joining - not upon enrollment. But it will be a few additional bucks into your pocket ahead of your peers.

 

[GO!!!]

Then you do that. I still think the pay incentive is a good idea.

Yes, but the people here are telling you that they know it is a bad idea, as many of them have been in cadets and are now in different parts of the reg and reserve forces, and have instructed both former cadets and off the street civvies.

What qualifies you to question instructors with more full time military experience than your whole life and cadet career combined?

I had a few ex cadets on my basic course. I can tell you (and they later admitted) that there is nothing of value to the reg force that you learn in cadets. If anything, cadets have more problems because they have habits that need to be broken, and are not as open to correction, as many of them think that they already "know" certain things. (e.g. I watched a former cadet RSM argue over whether MCpl is an appointment or rank with our course WO - in front of the class)

 

[Scott]

Groundless and uncalled for.

Not when you've seen the results. Trust me, I have.

If you ever do a basic after you've been in cadets, they'll ask you at some points if anyone did cadets.

should you choose to volunteer that information, you will be told to forget about the drill you learned as a cadet, and start anew...

and do NOT argue differences in drill with your staff

Neill, the above example is one of the things I have seen former Cadets do. Not pretty.

I posted this to help, provide information to the Cadets (Not start an argument) To cadets whos already decided to join and have there foot in the door with there application, and would of joined had this incentive not exist anyway) but because it does exist...see my point?

If I hadnt of joined cadets, my life would of been totally different, all the recruiting posters in the world doesnt recruit the way cadets does.

(Had I not joined cadets, I probably wouldnt of even looked at a recruiting poster, the way I do now) after working for a summer at VACSTC with Reservists, it sold me on joining, this is what I want to be, a CF Member and thats something a poster doesnt do.

If you post anything on Army.ca then you had better be prepared to debate it, you know better than that. Good for you that Cadets helped you make your decisions, I am happy for you and the countless others but what bearing does that have on incentive pay? Maybe your outfits should receive the money that you normally would for fostering this interest in the CF?

It does!

Maybe not on the level that some would want it to, but cadets DOES provide a stepping stone to what the military is like. Why else would the third aim of the CCM be "Stimulate an interest in the sea, land, and air components of the Canadian Forces"?

Yes there are some bad habits that develop in cadets, but would you rather have a new recruit to the CF who knows the rank system, and knows how to follow orders and show respect to the training cadre? or would you rather have a mouthy little bugger who doesn't respect any form of authority?

It does not, I base my statement on experience, do you? Great that it stimulates the interest, but it isn't the be all end all for a 12 year old - he doesn't have to join Cadets to build a good CF career.

I'd much rather have the new recruit that knew jack. That way he doesn't have any of the bad habits. Who said that  kids coming off the street with no Cadet experience are mouthy? I've seen far many more mouthy Cadets.

Then you do that. I still think the pay incentive is a good idea.

You haven't given me a good reason why. You just keep saying it's a good idea.

 

[ouyin2000]

Since all of you "gods" of the army life know what it is you're talking about, why don't you change the rules so former cadets don't get their pay incentive.

That would solve the problem.  :

 

[Michael OLeary]

Well, I've never really considered myself an "Army God", but if you're more comfortable thinking of me that way, I guess it's OK.

It would appear that the crux of the matter here has focussed on Scott's last remarks - in which he asked for someone to lay out the justification for the incentive.

While I have no doubt that a well conducted Cadet program, attended by a dedicated Cadet, could produce an applicant who is well-prepared to develop into a good service member.  (Please note I said service member, not soldier/sailor/airman - the first is based on basic personal attributes of self-discipline, ability to learn and adapt, and a degree of maturity; the second is based on proven performance in the technical aspects of a trade, which the cadet will not have gained.)

Unfortunately, as indicated in this thead and all too many others, there are those few (hopefully it's few) ex-Cadets who make a point of demonstrating that no matter how much they have learned, they failed to acquire the fundamental understanding that they are starting as a basic recruit - and to stay in that lane.

I don't believe anyone is working to make the case that the incentive shouldn't exist, they just want to understand that it's worth the cost - both financial and in light of the potential individual training issues that might occur when one of those less-well-prepared young citizens tries to use the argument:  Cadets get incentive pay, therefore, ex-Cadet is a better soldier.

So, to return to the core question of this debate - what would you describe as the basic justification for the incentive, from a viewpoint that remains valid in the current era and makes sense to the members (Cadet, CIC, Res F and Reg F) on this board?

Answering that would solve the "problem".

 

[GGHG_Cadet]

Is this Incentive just something that has remained intact from the 80s, when cadets used FNs, learned section attacks etc. on a frequent basis? Therefore they had some skills that would help them in the military and it made sense to give them an incentive. Then when the cadet program changed to what it is today they thought they should just keep it the way it is because it was something "nice" for the cadets. Just a speculation but maybe thats how it came to be what it is today.

 

[Pea]

card..... you'll be entitled to this "bonus" 6 months after joining - not upon enrollment. But it will be a few additional bucks into your pocket ahead of your peers.

Thanks Geo, I must have worded that wrong.

 

[Sig_Des]

This irritates me.

So I join at the same time as someone...We do our BMQ together. He mouths off whenever he gets a chance in "I was a MWO in Cadets"...."That Drill movement is wrong Cpl, that's not how I learned it in Cadets", etc..

Well, nobody in my section cried more than this kid. That includes a room full of girls. Kid opens his mouth, has a show parade. We had to dress him. He just stood there and cried.

"Private.... I though you said you were a cadet? These boots are S***!" he cried.

Got a lower mark on a weekly evaluation than he thought he would.... he cried.

Now, back at unit. This kid can get his incentive 6 months before the top student on that BMQ...for WHAT?

What does this former cadet bring of value to the CF that would entitle him to incentive, or in the reserve as is this case, PROMOTION, before someone who has performed better than him?

Knowledge of rank? former drill experience? ability to shine boots and make beds? You mean, things that they teach you anyway?

I'm not saying all cadets are like this, this was an individual, but this whole incentive thing goes against, give someone something when they earn it. This is a case in point.

Now, you want to give an incentive to a former civvy paramedic? Police officer? Pilot ? Mechanic? You'll hear no complaints from me.

But, he/she was in cadets? I'd rather see an incentive for someone who's played hockey for 3 years in the last 5.

*rant off*

 

[geo]

Sig des....yup some cadets mouth off.... and become a magnet for all the negative attention of the instructors.... you should have it easier +/-

Not all cadets are so lippy and most learn real quick that it does not pay to be the Know it all.... cause, the same way mouthy reservists are put into their place by Regs.... the Cadets get it both barrels from both Reg & Res

Does that merit the IPC in advance =- not really.... but it is CF policy and neither you nor I can change it's application.

Take a valium and relax

Chimo!

 

[Scott]

I want to clarify my stance on this matter:

I was asking for justification of the program. I don't care if you get it or not, I really don't - whether you're getting more money or not you will get sorted out if you are a tool, either on course or at the unit level.

What I have seen from the Cadets and CIC, with the exception of maybe bbbb (don't agree with him but he tried), are groundless reasons for the program to exist and statements as unbelievable as this:

Cadet experience does not = useful military experience

then

It does!

Show me how this could possibly be true based on your experience in both Cadets and the CF.

I don't disagree with Michael's thoughts that the Cadet program could produce a well motivated and prepared applicant for the CF but I don't believe that it is a necessary step. I don't think you can guarantee that person's desire to make it and I don't think you can guarantee the results. My point is that when it comes time for training I believe that the guy off the street has just as much a shot as the Cadet X five years.

I was a Cadet for five years and then progressed into the PRes, I didn't even enquire about this program because I had zero clue about it. I went rhough my BMQ with about 75 people, 15 who were former Cadets and the only few I noticed were the ones who made themselves noticeable by mouthing off, screwing up, crying or quitting a week in. Yeah there were plenty of other people there, who hadn't been in Cadets, that mouthed off, screwed up, cried or quit in a week. The difference between the two is the guys from right off the street weren't telling you how good they were, they weren't expecting it to be easy, they didn't think they knew it all. Does this make sense?

I took my father's advice when I went to my BMQ and to every subsequent course I have ever done: Play the gray man, drive the body and do not open your mouth.

To repeat, I am just looking for justification of the program, that is all. If you can prove it then I would support it, I haven't seen the proof yet.

 

[Pea]

As a past cadet in the recruiting process I have been trying to find a way to justify this incentive. I had never really thought of it before, it was just something the recruiter told me I qualified for. Any hey, extra money in my pocket at some time, who am I to complain?

I decided to speak to a friend of mine who was in my cadet corps, who has now been in the forces for a year and a half.

When he went through his basic training there were a few things he found were useful from cadets.

1. He knew the rank structure, who to call who and so on.
2. Already possessed good uniform prep skills
3. Drill, he knew how to do all the drill already, and never caught flack for "sloppy cadet drill"
4. Map & Compass, we learn up to the 6 figure grid reference in cadets so he had the basic understanding and found it easy to expand on this. He was asked to help mentor other recruits who were having trouble, because they noticed he picked it up no problem.
5. I figure he must have possessed some good leadership skills because he was made course senior (term?) on more than a few occasions, and was complimented by his staff on more than one occasion. (not bugged for being an ex-cadet)

These are the things I can remember from when he went through basic training. I would say these were all things that definitely helped him in basic training. I'll be the first to admit he was an exceptional cadet, and the kind who knew to keep his mouth shut about it. Maybe he was just a great recruit, who knows.

Does this merit being given a pay incentive? I am not sure. However, I hope having this past experience as well, will help me do well in basic too.

 

[Neill McKay]

The common argument against this scheme seems to be that former cadets don't bring any skills to the table that they wouldn't otherwise learn by the end of BMQ.  I would suggest that what cadets have over other candidates has more to do with an understanding of military culture that Joe Civvie doesn't necessarily have.  A cadet has already shown that he can function in a structured quasi-military environment.  He also has (if he was in cadets for more anything close to the full seven years) some decent leadership training, as already noted by others.  While Pte Bloggins doesn't lead very much, having a knowledge of leadership makes one a better follower, and a better team member.

There are of course going to be utter numpties and attitude cases who join the Forces after some time as cadets.  But there are some of those who join off the street as well.  For a given individual, with all other factors being equal, I think half a dozen years in the cadet programme would make for a better service member at least initially.

Mind you, nobody here (including me) seems to know if the bit of extra money is really intended to reflect the skills of former cadets at all.  It may very well have been conceived as a small hook to get cadets to look more seriously at joining the Forces (similar to the various signing bonuses for doctors and such, but quite a bit smaller).  If that's the case, and if it works, then so much the better.

 

[Scott]

As a past cadet in the recruiting process I have been trying to find a way to justify this incentive. I had never really thought of it before, it was just something the recruiter told me I qualified for. Any hey, extra money in my pocket at some time, who am I to complain?

I decided to speak to a friend of mine who was in my cadet corps, who has now been in the forces for a year and a half.

When he went through his basic training there were a few things he found were useful from cadets.

1. He knew the rank structure, who to call who and so on.
2. Already possessed good uniform prep skills
3. Drill, he knew how to do all the drill already, and never caught flack for "sloppy cadet drill"
4. Map & Compass, we learn up to the 6 figure grid reference in cadets so he had the basic understanding and found it easy to expand on this. He was asked to help mentor other recruits who were having trouble, because they noticed he picked it up no problem.
5. I figure he must have possessed some good leadership skills because he was made course senior (term?) on more than a few occasions, and was complimented by his staff on more than one occasion. (not bugged for being an ex-cadet)

These are the things I can remember from when he went through basic training. I would say these were all things that definitely helped him in basic training. I'll be the first to admit he was an exceptional cadet, and the kind who knew to keep his mouth shut about it. Maybe he was just a great recruit, who knows.

Does this merit being given a pay incentive? I am not sure. However, I hope having this past experience as well, will help me do well in basic too.

In bold, what I haven't noticed anyone say so far. I had been hoping someone would lay that one down because I do agree with it. If you are the ex-Cadet going into a BMQ section with people who have not had the benefit of that experience then I believe it to be incumbent upon that person to help the others. As a Staff member, I would be watching that former Cadet very closely. Does s/he help others or just pay attention to their own kit? Does s/he add to the team over and above what most recruits do because of this persons past? Does s/he warrant that extra money?

Only after answering these questions positively would I consider the former Cadet for a bump in pay, at that time maybe they would have earned it?

I have never said that the ex Cadet doesn't bring anything valuable to the table, they certainly do bring some worthwhile experiences and I won't try to say otherwise. But on the grand scheme of things it is not really that much. But, if this person shows the willingness to help their peers while keeping their tongue in check about their time in Cadets I wouldn't begrudge them the extra pay.

The problem lies with the former Cadet who does nothing to help his buddies, undermines their training by mouthing off to his buddies about "his experience" and challenges the Staff.

Again, I was  Cadet for five years and I can recall figuring out on Day number one that this was not Cadets and that I had better be there to learn, not to show what I had learned.

 

[Pea]

In bold, what I haven't noticed anyone say so far. I had been hoping someone would lay that one down because I do agree with it. If you are the ex-Cadet going into a BMQ section with people who have not had the benefit of that experience then I believe it to be incumbent upon that person to help the others. As a Staff member, I would be watching that former Cadet very closely. Does s/he help others or just pay attention to their own kit? Does s/he add to the team over and above what most recruits do because of this persons past? Does s/he warrant that extra money?

Only after answering these questions positively would I consider the former Cadet for a bump in pay, at that time maybe they would have earned it?

I have never said that the ex Cadet doesn't bring anything valuable to the table, they certainly do bring some worthwhile experiences and I won't try to say otherwise. But on the grand scheme of things it is not really that much. But, if this person shows the willingness to help their peers while keeping their tongue in check about their time in Cadets I wouldn't begrudge them the extra pay.

Thanks Scott. That is what I was trying to get at. If I go in with prior knowledge like I explained my friend had, and I am in turn able to help new recruits who may be struggling with things, am I not helping the CF in some way? I believe so. If I can help say two recruits have a better uniform and a few others understand some map & compass that they were struggling with, then I think I am being somewhat useful to the system. Sure, I am only making a small difference, but is it not still a difference?

The problem lies with the former Cadet who does nothing to help his buddies, undermines their training by mouthing off to his buddies about "his experience" and challenges the Staff.

Yes, there will be some former cadets who will get this incentive and will turn out to be complete turds. This happens all the time in other organizations too. I know of at least 2 people my company has hired because of "past experiences" that have turned out to be complete wastes of time and energy. But, should we just stop offering bonuses because of the chance a few idiots will benefit from it?

I really liked the comment you made that I have highlighted in bold. Maybe the solution to the issue is that one needs to be evaluated, say at the end of basic training, to see if they should qualify for this incentive? Just a thought.

 

[Scott]

For clarity, from the CFAO's:

b.  A former cadet of any of the Canadian cadet organizations who has
          completed three years as a cadet within the previous five years,
          during which time the cadet has passed a six-week trade or
          specialty course, shall be enrolled as Pte (R) and be granted a
          time credit of 180 days for the purposes of determining the date
          on which the member will become eligible to be paid the rate of
          pay prescribed for a private, pay level 1, incentive pay category
          1.

Note - For Army cadets, qualification as Master Cadet, and for Air
cadets, a flying scholarship or two completed summer camp courses, each
of two weeks duration, will be considered equivalent to a six-week trade
or specialty course.  For Sea cadets, two completed summer camp courses
will be considered equivalent to a six-week trade or specialty course.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/cfao/006-01_e.asp

 

[Neill McKay]

Your missing the point. Pay incentives should only be given for people joining with needed skills. There is nothing (save drill and the rank structure) in cadets you can't learn/get elsewhere. I don't see why it's a 'good idea' to try to recruit cadets. We need people, whether they are cadets or not.

I don't understand why you're saying this when you've quoted my post above.  You haven't even tried to address my points.

Well that essentially sums up my argument. Maybe their experience is useful to a limited extent, but in the grand scheme of things, its not really that much.

Nor is the increase in pay really that much -- six months early getting a one-IPC increase.  Something tells me that a cost-benefit analysis would indicate that the Crown isn't getting too badly screwed by the deal.

I say that from (limited) experience.

I'd be interested in knowing what, in your experience, has so soured you towards the cadet programme that you take every opportunity you can to look down your nose at it.

 

[Neill McKay]

I am not soured towards the cadet program. I have a distaste for those who would seem to say that being in cadets somehow entitles you to special benefits above others. It's a youth group, pure and simple. You get to do some cool stuff and play pretend soldier sometimes and go to summer camp, all good things. But it is not anything so special as to make you more deserving of 'goodies' then others. I see cadets for what it is, I don't understand why some don't.

The cadet programme is largely what the officers and cadets in each unit make of it, with a wide spectrum between the best and the worst.  Perhaps you didn't get lucky -- but realize that some units turn out some pretty impressive cadets who I suspect would easily go into a career in the Forces well ahead of the crowd.