Hybrid Electric Vehicles

[FJAG]

I guess that I continue to be one of those dinosaurs.

In the general automotive industry my issue with battery powered vehicles is the environmental cost of producing batteries and then the end-of life disposal/recycle of batteries. At this point the cost of batteries and their production/disposal/recycle is far too high both in money and environmental impact.

To this point as well, there is the high cost/impact of energy generation to charge those batteries in the quantities needed (and anticipated). Much as the Pollyannas of the world ignore these issues in the belief that wind and solar power will look after that I tend to wonder about the life cycles and environmental effects of creating and disposing of those turbines and solar cells at the scale needed to generate the power needed. I'm a nuclear fan but that seems to be anathema to many of those pushing electrification.

It's not that we dinosaurs don't have concerns about carbon based fuels - their effect on the environment and their finite quantities - but to this point in time we do not see a comprehensive, all-encompassing electric model that is truly a net benefit on the scale required and not just a wet dream.

As for for the military. Sure. It's easy to see where the lack of noise and low heat signature is a massive advantage - but - what about the vulnerability and energy release that will invariably happen when batteries are damaged through inevitable rough handling or combat damage. More importantly, if you think that the logistical issues with providing liquid fuels to the end point users is a challenge, just wait until you try to provide electric power to thousands of widely distributed vehicles on a battlefield where power transmission lines have ceased to exist. I have yet to see a viable plan for that that doesn't include hybrid vehicles and large numbers of liquid fuel powered generators.

Talk down to us again when Doctor Emmett Brown's Mr Fusion becomes a reality.

 

[McG]

if you think that the logistical issues with providing liquid fuels to the end point users is a challenge, just wait until you try to provide electric power to thousands of widely distributed vehicles on a battlefield where …

I just finished commenting that hybrid and electric are not the same thing. We are discussing hybrid and here you attacking a strawman of pure electric vehicles. You are better than such intellectually dishonest arguments.

 

[Good2Golf]

I guess that I continue to be one of those dinosaurs.

In the general automotive industry my issue with battery powered vehicles is the environmental cost of producing batteries and then the end-of life disposal/recycle of batteries. At this point the cost of batteries and their production/disposal/recycle is far too high both in money and environmental impact.

To this point as well, there is the high cost/impact of energy generation to charge those batteries in the quantities needed (and anticipated). Much as the Pollyannas of the world ignore these issues in the belief that wind and solar power will look after that I tend to wonder about the life cycles and environmental effects of creating and disposing of those turbines and solar cells at the scale needed to generate the power needed. I'm a nuclear fan but that seems to be anathema to many of those pushing electrification.

It's not that we dinosaurs don't have concerns about carbon based fuels - their effect on the environment and their finite quantities - but to this point in time we do not see a comprehensive, all-encompassing electric model that is truly a net benefit on the scale required and not just a wet dream.

As for for the military. Sure. It's easy to see where the lack of noise and low heat signature is a massive advantage - but - what about the vulnerability and energy release that will invariably happen when batteries are damaged through inevitable rough handling or combat damage. More importantly, if you think that the logistical issues with providing liquid fuels to the end point users is a challenge, just wait until you try to provide electric power to thousands of widely distributed vehicles on a battlefield where power transmission lines have ceased to exist. I have yet to see a viable plan for that that doesn't include hybrid vehicles and large numbers of liquid fuel powered generators.

Talk down to us again when Doctor Emmett Brown's Mr Fusion becomes a reality.

The main factors vary depending on the use, but will always be some balance of:

• Power source availability
• Power source cost
• Manufacture cost
• Manufacture cleanliness
• Power use cleanliness
• Power use safety
• Power density
• Endurance
• Employment Safety
• Employment Survivability
• Maintainability
• Repower time

EVs do well on maintainability and power use cleanliness……

 

[FJAG]

I just finished commenting that hybrid and electric are not the same thing. We are discussing hybrid and here you attacking a strawman of pure electric vehicles. You are better than such intellectually dishonest arguments.

Boy, that's flying over my head there.

The thread was discussing the world-wide trend slowing down on EVs and then there was a veer to hybrid. I don't think that that limited the thread to just hybrid. The first part of my comments related to EVs in general and my own dinosaur position in that IMHO, the world isn't ready for EV at scale.

My subsequent comments go to both military EV and hybrid systems (and believe me that I know the difference between the two - I've always wondered why the diesel-electric concept (that has been in effect in railroads and ships for well over half a century) never matured in the auto/truck market. That said, regardless of whether its hybrid or EV in military use, I have the same concerns about batteries in military use that I stated above where even a minor mine, IED or projectile strike could result in a catastrophic energy release. So don't consider it a dishonest discussion on your part of the thread but one that reaches a wider question focusing on the battery rather than the pure EV v hybrid discussion.

The question as to your part of the discussion is: whether or not the advantages of a hybrid system in public use translate well into military use. The emphasis above was on logistics, specifically fuel. I'm not so sure that the 20-35% seen in public use will actually translate into those figures in military usage and whether that offsets the issues that large-scale batteries have in a combat environment. While hybrids should result in a better power pack group when it comes to operation and maintenance, the life cycle issues relating to the required batteries operating under military conditions is still, IMHO, an unknown experimental factor. Add to that that the primary components to their manufacture coming from outside North America makes them a strategic weak point. I'd love to see a diesel electric M1A3 as much as the next guy, but ... everything that I see at this time is in experimental phases with brochure-level advertising of the anticipated benefits rather than hard statistics.

I'm not a naysayer on hybrids - or even EVs - in military use; I'm just from Missouri and waiting for someone to show me the facts and figures of large-scale battery usage impact on both military logistics and human combat survival.

 

[Good2Golf]

My subsequent comments go to both military EV and hybrid systems (and believe me that I know the difference between the two - I've always wondered why the diesel-electric concept (that has been in effect in railroads and ships for well over half a century) never matured in the auto/truck market in North America. That said, regardless of whether its hybrid or EV in military use, I have the same concerns about batteries in military use that I stated above where even a minor mine, IED or projectile strike could result in a catastrophic energy release. So don't consider it a dishonest discussion on your part of the thread but one that reaches a wider question focusing on the battery rather than the pure EV v hybrid discussion.

I’d horse trade my NA-spec ICE GLE350d for a DEU-spec GLE350de PHEV in a heartbeat.

A Diesel-hybrid PHEV or something like that would have decent characteristics on my previous factors list, for military use…

 

[ytz]

You know people might actually listen to you if you don't come off as a douche bag??

Not needing to be listened to, let's me be a douchebag. You should try it. Being less needy is liberating.

 

[Kirkhill]

Not needing to be listened to, let's me be a douchebag. You should try it. Being less needy is liberating.

So allow me to assist in your liberation by not listening to you ....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Tesla trying to move away from Lithium.