How to create insurgents

[1feral1]

About balls, hearts and minds, etc. Its a famous quote which I like, and I find it humourous, anyone who takes what I said seriously is really looking for a weak point to start an argument.

Hey 48, ever considered joining the Peace Corps? If you are a member of the CF, I would not want you in my PL or worse in Section! In an operational environment, I am sure you would be fragged by your own friends. If you ever get down this way, I'll take to into some radical islamic areas of Sydney, in which you will truly be afraid for your life. Being Canadian is not bulletproof protection, as these mainly wahibi sect extremists would love to kill you quicksmart because of your religion, and as long as you are a westerner you are targets. Listen to a Sydney based mainstream so called 'moderate' muslim website, and what many have to say on www.islamicsydney.com and go to forums and then current affairs. What they have to say about the Berg video is shocking enough! These are people right here in Sydney.

The media (ABC TV crew) have been nearly killed on one occasion ( when attacked by 100's at the Lakemba mosque), others, including female journalists have been also assaulted, and this is not in Baghdad, but right here in the Olympic city of Sydney.

We have now arrested and detained many muslim terrorists right here. Lebanese, Pakistani, Eqyptian, and Jordanian muslims of the extreme right wing. These arrests have prevented loss of Australian lives. Other Sydney based muslims have been arrested overseas and are now being held in Beruit on terr charges there, and could even get the death penalty.

Radical extreme islam is growning here in Australia, and one day a group will get thru, and do their dash here. Thats a fact. we have every right to be nerous too, with the Bali bombings, and the worlds largest muslim country to our north with about 280,000,000 muslims living on over 13,000 of the 16,000 islands which make up Indonesia. Many are radical and hate Australia over the East Timor liberation. Go to www.dfat.gov.au for the travel warnings, and see for yourself.

So before you go off on another do gooder snivel libertarian tanty, take hed in what I have said and others have said.


Regards,

Wes

 

[48Highlander]

I've never been to Australia so I really don't know how accurate what you're saying is.  I do however have an australian friend whom I've known for roughly 7 years now.  Her brother is in the ADF reserve.  When I told them what you said about militant muslims in Sidney, they said you were "talking out your arse".  Personaly, I think someone with your attitude and beleifs is likely to see enemies where there are none.  Certainly, having pre-conceived notions about what certain "types" of people are like will influence the way you look at them.  And the way you treat them will change the way they react to you.  Either way, you wouldn't have to worry about working with me.  If you were tasked to my section I'd request that you be transfered immediately.  I don't need any of my troops poisoning our relationship with the locals.

Capt. Bossi:  I hope this reply is acceptable.  Let me know if I get out of line and I'll modify whichever part of the post you find offensive.

 

[1feral1]

48: For the record about baseball caps vs turbins. The latest terrorist to cop a 9 yr sentance for planning to blow up the Israeli embassy in Canberra was infact a muslim convert, UK born good ole meat pie eating white boy. So leave the skin colour out of it.

Willie Briget (was organising a terr strike here in Sydney) too was an islamic convert too, and he was deported to France from here and is being held on terr charges there.

Listen Mate (and I use that term loosly) dont EVER go comparing me to a Hitler or an Nazi. I have relatives who are buried at Vimy and Passchendaele and in Normandy graves   from WW2, and my reason for signing on was in their honour!

Its not about wiping out ALL muslims, the majority are just like you and I (god fearing genuine people), but its about wiping out the dangerous sect of them, who would rather see you and your family DEAD because of your beliefs.

Was you Chocko friend Sydney ( spelled with a Y BTW) based? Have   they not ever heard of Lakemba, Punchbowl, Fairfield, Wiley Park, Auburn and the rest? Anyone who denies there is a problem here is not banging on all four cylinders. Even our PM has acknowledged an attack will come. So is our PM too talking out his arse? Are wthe SAS and other anti terr squads talking out their arses too? Are the guards on the Harbour Bridge protecting it from attack talking out their arse too? Is the biggest anti terr exercise ever conducted in the history of Australia last week organised by more arse talkers?   Is DFAT talking out its arse?   Get rooted mate! You got alot to learn. Were the 89 Australians who were murdered by radical islam talking out their arses too?

Arguing with you is pointless as you are totally blind to the TRUTH, and your vison might only come back once the danger is on your door step, or worse once someone you love is MURDERED in cold gutless fashion.

Please feel free with more demotes.

Turn in your kit!

Out.

Wes

 

[48Highlander]

Here wes:

(Link deleted by Army.ca DS - we don't need hits on that site from here, and the material is drivel anyhow.)

I thought you might enjoy that.   There you can talk to some people who share your views.   I especially like the disclaimer at the bottom.

I don't really care who you have that died where.   I do also, as do many, MANY people on here.   Having relatives who died fighting Nazis doesn't excuse your attitude nor does it somehow make you more noble or correct.   Even the most dishonourable man must have at least one honourable relative.

 

[Infanteer]

This thread has left the realm of relevance and utility.

Since it has devolved from an attempt to actually debate anything, just take it to the PM's please.

 

[Infanteer]

As well, I'd like to see a solution.

48, you obviously feel that pounding them into an oblivion wouldn't work.  So what do you propose we do to eliminate the clear and present danger of radical Islam?

 

[Kirkhill]

O great programmer of the forum server

Please, Please, Please, just this once let me karmically demote that character parading as highlander without having to wait an hour.  He is so deserving of karmic punishment.

Huh, can I? Just once?

I wonder. Do you suppose he is regimental? Or is he one of those poor types that puts a silk lining in his kilt?

It makes me ashamed to be Scots.

48th.  You joined for a sojer.  On the day that you joined you agreed to give yourself over to your Sovereign and obey the commands of those folks she put in command of you.  And if your CO is silly enough to promote you, you will be expected to relay those commands to other folks just like yourself. 

Your Sovereign acts on the basis of advice given to her by her Canadian government, with or without the approval  parliament and the Canadian populace.  She is definitely not waiting around to hear your opinion.

When your superior commands you have two options: obey or take your complaint up before a court-martial.  You had better be gey sure of your case.

If you don't like the situation of being told to do things you don't like, you don't think are right, you think are morally repugnant then you should follow the advice of others on this forum with longer service  than either of us and get out.

You volunteered to do the Queen's bidding.  Not only when you understand or agree with the instruction but also in circumstances where you are not as familiar with the details and the rationale as the higher command.  You agreed to trust the command.

To be fair, it is admirable that you do trust your chain of command enough that you believe they will never put you in a moral quandary. 

But the Queen and her government are planning on you living up to your side of the bargain and doing what you are told.  Their decisions may be right or wrong but they must be able to count on the forces acting in accordance with the wishes of her government which democratically elected to make those decisions.

Have you considered what might have happened if things had gone bad in Montreal in 1970 or at Oka in 1980?  Those troops of your age could have found themselves ordered to fire on Canadians.  Are you ready to do that?  Because that is what is implied in your terms of service.

The only real comfort that a serving soldier can take is that leaders are (or maybe I should say were) schooled never to give a command that will not  be obeyed.  A mutinous body of troops is bad for an officer's prospects of promotion, not to mention it can have a deleterious effect on his long-term health.

But a soldier first and foremost is a servant of the state.

 

[bossi]

(sigh ... maybe it's just the high humidex reading today ... and everybody will rediscover their errant Forum manners tomorrow after a good night's sleep ...)

Anyway - it's interesting to note their fund-raisers aren't stupid.
Rather than traffic illegal narcotics, they've latched onto "minor" smuggling to stay "under the radar"
(i.e. lesser penalties, but high stakes nevertheless).
Perhaps, similar to the way they nailed Capone for tax evasion, another converging attack is to cut the terrorists' legs out from under them is to strangle their cashflow ... (hmmm ... sounds familiar, doesn't it?  When Thatcher finally convinced the United States to stop the flow of funds, the IRA's demise began ...).  And, we know several governments have already taken steps in this direction ... hmmm ... maybe they're on to something ... ?
"Starve them to death" financially, "Choke them to death" vis-a-vis recruiting by winning over the hearts and minds of potential recruits thereby denying cannon fodder to the extremists, and outright kill them when they stand up to take a shot at "us" ... ?  Hmmm ...

Cigarette Smuggling Linked to Terrorism
By Sari Horwitz, Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, June 8, 2004; Page A01

Smugglers with ties to terrorist groups are acquiring millions of dollars from illegal cigarette sales and funneling the cash to organizations such as al Qaeda and Hezbollah, federal law enforcement officials say, prompting a nationwide crackdown on black market tobacco.

The federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has more than 300 open cases of illicit cigarette trafficking -- including several with terrorist links -- up from only a handful five years ago, ATF sources said.

"This is a major priority for us," said Michael Bouchard, assistant director of the ATF. "The deeper we dig into these cases, the more ties to terrorism we're discovering."

The lucrative trafficking of cigarettes, known as cigarette diversion, is a simple scheme but difficult to stop, law enforcement officials say. The traffickers purchase a large volume of cigarettes in states where the tax is low, such as Virginia and North Carolina, transport them up Interstate 95 to states such as Maryland, New York, Pennsylvania and New Jersey and then sell them at a discount without paying the higher cigarette taxes in those states.

With huge profits -- and low penalties for arrest and conviction -- illicit cigarette trafficking now has begun to rival drug trafficking as a funding choice for terrorist groups, said William Billingslea, an ATF senior intelligence analyst who has studied the issue extensively.

Although black market cigarette sales have been around for decades, the link to suspected terrorist groups is a new and growing phenomenon.

"The schemes provide terrorists millions of dollars which can be used to purchase firearms and explosives to use against the United States and others," said ATF Director Carl J. Truscott, who was appointed to head the agency two months ago after 22 years in the Secret Service.

Several major cases of illicit cigarette trafficking with terrorist links have involved the purchase of cigarettes in Virginia and are currently under investigation, federal law enforcement sources said, adding that there are other cases nationally with links between the traffickers and Hamas, Hezbollah and al Qaeda.

"The money is so lucrative," Billingslea said.

In New York City, for example, where the combined state and city tax on cigarettes is $3 a pack, a carton can sell for about $75. The trafficker can buy a carton for about $20 in Virginia, where the tax is 2.5 cents a pack, and then sell it to a mom-and-pop store in New York at a profit of about $40 a carton, ATF officials said.

A smuggler can make about $2 million on a single truckload of cigarettes. A truckload contains 800 cases, or 48,000 cartons.

"People go shopping for a bargain," Billingslea said. "Why pay $75 for a carton of cigarettes when I know someone down the street who will sell me a carton for $15 less out of the back of a car?"

The first large-scale cigarette trafficking case tied to terrorism was prosecuted in North Carolina in 2002. A federal jury in Charlotte convicted Mohamad Hammoud, 28, of violating a ban on providing material support to terrorist groups by funneling profits from a multimillion-dollar cigarette-smuggling operation to Hezbollah.

The jury also found Hammoud, whom prosecutors described as the leader of a terrorist cell, and his brother guilty of cigarette smuggling, racketeering and money laundering. The two men, natives of Lebanon, were accused of smuggling at least $7.9 million worth of cigarettes out of North Carolina and selling them in Michigan. Hammoud was sentenced to 155 years in prison.

Prosecutors were able to prove that profits from the venture were funneled to high-ranking Hezbollah leaders. And Hammoud was caught on wiretaps speaking on the telephone with Hezbollah's military commander in Lebanon, Sheik Abbas Harake, according to trial testimony.

In another case in September, Hassan Moussa Makki, 41, a key player in a multimillion-dollar interstate cigarette smuggling ring, pleaded guilty in Michigan to providing material support for terrorism and participating in a racketeering conspiracy. Prosecutors said he also funneled money to Hezbollah.

Makki, a native of Lebanon, was one of 12 people indicted last year in the scheme to buy low-tax cigarettes in North Carolina and sell them in Michigan. He was sentenced to 57 months in prison.

Law enforcement sources said the terrorist links are established in these and other ongoing investigations through wiretaps and background intelligence investigations and by running the traffickers' names and those of their associates through CIA, FBI and Homeland Security databases. When a terrorist tie is suspected, the cigarette-trafficking probe becomes a joint investigation with one of 66 Joint Terrorism Task Forces across the country. The task forces, run by the FBI, are composed of federal, state and local law enforcement officials.

Paul J. McNulty, the U.S. attorney in Alexandria, last year charged 10 people with possession and distribution of contraband cigarettes, wire fraud and money laundering as part of a scheme to smuggle more than $2 million in cigarettes bought in Virginia to New York. A man whose name came up in that investigation was arrested in Detroit carrying hundreds of thousands of dollars in wire transfer receipts showing payments to people associated with Hezbollah.

In an interview, McNulty declined to comment on terrorist links in that case. But he said the ATF and other law enforcement agencies are taking cigarette smuggling "more seriously than ever."

"We are pursuing cases such as cigarette smuggling because of the possibility that proceeds from that crime could end up in the hands of terrorists," McNulty said.

He added that the Charlotte case made law enforcement officials more attentive to cigarette smuggling as a key source of financial support for terrorists.

"There are other sources, but this is the one that has gotten the attention of law enforcement," McNulty said.

Cigarette trafficking is difficult to stop, partly because tobacco is a legal commodity. Smuggling cigarettes becomes a federal crime only when more than 60,000 cigarettes, or 300 cartons, are purchased to avoid payment of state tax, said Jerry Bowerman, chief of the ATF alcohol and tobacco enforcement branch.

McNulty said catching the suspects is extremely labor-intensive.

In his case, he said, New York tax authorities placed advertisements in various newspapers and magazines in the New York City area offering Virginia cigarettes for sale. The ads for A&A Tobacco Wholesale listed a Virginia telephone number to place orders. A Virginia post office box was set up as a billing address. Incoming calls were switched to and recorded by an agent with the New York office of tax enforcement.

An undercover storefront location was established for A&A Tobacco Wholesale by law enforcement personnel in King George County in Virginia, where investigators from the New York tax office posed as employees and filled the cigarette orders.

When prospective cigarette purchasers telephoned the advertised number and placed orders, they were told that the cigarettes being sold would bear counterfeit joint New York State and New York City tax stamps.

 

[48Highlander]

Infanteer:  The boys in afghanistan at the moment are doing a pretty damn good job.  Follow their lead.

Kirkhill:  My "soverign" has, through the chain of command, ordered me to obey the laws of Canada, and the Geneva Conventions.  I don't think that's about to change.  If it does, I'll have to reconsider my commitment to her.

 

[winchable]

*ding ding*

I'm going to back Bossi on this one, gentlemen to your corners, and come out tommorow.


Must be the heat.

 

[Kirkhill]

Fair enough 48th.

Cheers

 

[Smoothbore]

I believe that once we finally find an alternative power source and become independent of those crude oil fields under the scorching sands of Saudi Arabia, this current conflict will eventually just fade away magically, trust me. Our (Western) involvement in those regions will minimise and become non-existant. With that, anti-Western rhetoric claiming that the US, under the influence of American Jews (Zionists as the Arab world loves to call them) is making enormous profits off their sacred lands will diminish.
One serious issue however remains, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. From an Arab point of view the Palestinians - with no armed forces, occupied and generally divided - are abused by Israel, which is a local superpower funded by the US. The only way Palestinians can fend themselves and fight for their ideals is through irregular warfare, and that is what they are doing and causing Israel to retaliate in a similar manner (shooting up refugee camps). I see no solution to this problem. Both sides are stubborn jackasses, they're just creating unrest and dividing the rest of the world.

 

[Infanteer]

I believe that once we finally find an alternative power source and become independent of those crude oil fields under the scorching sands of Saudi Arabia, this current conflict will eventually just fade away magically, trust me. Our (Western) involvement in those regions will minimise and become non-existant. With that, anti-Western rhetoric claiming that the US, under the influence of American Jews (Zionists as the Arab world loves to call them) is making enormous profits off their sacred lands will diminish.

Ideally, yes.  But I think a major geopolitical shift will take place in the region before the West will be capable of developing this technology to the extent that it can migitate our need for petroleum (remember, besides cars, planes, trains, transport trucks, plastics, oils and lubrications all require petroleum as well).  I can't see the energy situation being resolved in the next decade, so we shouldn't put all our hopes into waiting for that solution to come around.

One serious issue however remains, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. From an Arab point of view the Palestinians - with no armed forces, occupied and generally divided - are abused by Israel, which is a local superpower funded by the US. The only way Palestinians can fend themselves and fight for their ideals is through irregular warfare, and that is what they are doing and causing Israel to retaliate in a similar manner (shooting up refugee camps). I see no solution to this problem. Both sides are stubborn jackasses, they're just creating unrest and dividing the rest of the world.

I think the neutering of terrost organizations by targeting their leaders seems to be working.  Again, I don't see this issue being resolved until a significant enough event takes place in the region to force change upon both parties.

 

[Smoothbore]

I can't see the energy situation being resolved in the next decade, so we shouldn't put all our hopes into waiting for that solution to come around.
I think the neutering of terrorist organizations by targeting their leaders seems to be working.  Again, I don't see this issue being resolved until a significant enough event takes place in the region to force change upon both parties.

That is correct, there will be no major technology shift for another 30 or so years.
The geopolitical situation will however drastically change when someone becomes desperate enough to detonate a nuclear device in Tel Aviv or Haifa (and unfortunately this is where we're heading right now, the US has got militant Islamic organizations cornered, thus making them more susceptible to take drastic action - if you don't already consider 9/11 drastic)..We shouldn't wait for that to happen. Certain steps should be taken to avoid this, occupation and military action haven't been working for the past 25 years. Targeting leadership? Can you come forth with some particular examples of where and how this has worked?
Any thoughts on how to avoid this prelude to disaster?

48th, Wes - Hug!

 

[1feral1]

Hey 48, I see alot of other pers agreeing with you (NOT). Just keep the blinders on, and you'll be alright. Oh, BTW dont forget to demote me again.

Personally I find your posting of a KKK website which promotes nothing but the purest of hatred, murder, and unrest in very bad taste, and QUITE OFFENSIVE yet comparing me to such a filthy organisation which I believe should also be put down.

Not only are you grasping at straws, but this also really tells me the quality of  being you are, and I find you reaching the rank of MCPL simply another mistake of   'one falling thru the cracks and getting away'.

You are lower than low, and I almost feel embarrassed for you.

Shame on ya for promoting hatred on this fine website. You should have your membership revoked ASAP, and I hope you do.

Dont forget to turn in your kit next Tuesday night.

Wes

 

[Goober]

indescriminantly killing and torturing civilians and detainess

That's the point, that everyone is trying to make. I can't see where Wes or anyone else has advocated the indiscriminate killing and torturing of civilians or detainees.

Nor is that a policy of the United States - yes, several isolated incidents, but not policy

...

That may be the policy now.. but it could change at anytime. Here is a snippet from an AP article

""The president has made it clear that U.S. policy is that the Geneva Convention applied in Iraq and that detainees elsewhere are treated consistent with the Geneva accords."

One of the memos, cited in a March 2003 Pentagon policy paper, stated that the president's broad wartime national security authority may override anti-torture laws and treaties, including the Geneva Conventions, in certain circumstances."

Full story here... http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pub&dt=040609&cat=news&st=newsd833at900&src=ap

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Folks I am locking this as you do not want to seem to play nice and before it turns into an even nastier flame war it ends here!