Homosexual marriage (social & military implications, and related events)

[Bruce Monkhouse]

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/OttawaSun/News/2005/01/19/903105-sun.html


A gay old time on base

New military policy allows chaplains to marry same-sex couples

By KATHLEEN HARRIS, Parliamentary Bureau

GAY AND lesbian army couples can now get married on military bases. The Canadian Forces has quietly drafted a policy calling for military chaplains to formally bless same-sex weddings. Guidelines -- considered "interim" until the federal government passes a law redefining marriage -- outline the process for pre-nuptial counselling and using the base chapel for same-sex ceremonies.

Col. Stan Johnstone, a military chaplain who helped draft the policy, said the guidelines reflect the primary role of ministering to all CF members and their families.

NO EXPECTATIONS

Johnstone said chaplains vary on personal convictions and theology, but don't discriminate against anyone in need of counsel.

The guidelines are "essentially a statement of the way the law is going. We don't put any expectations on people -- we expect them to function as we always do, according to the tenets of their church, their own conscience and the laws of the province," he said.

"No one is being put under any constraint to do something they wouldn't normally do."

The roughly 150 military chaplains who work on bases across the country aren't required to perform same-sex marriages if it's against their religious beliefs, but they have the responsibility to find a colleague to conduct the ceremony.

Johnstone said the chaplaincy is taking a "leading edge" on the issue as there is not yet a known request for a gay wedding on a base.

While documents obtained by the Sun under Access to Information refer to the need to "avoid embarrassment" to the Canadian Forces or the chaplain branch, Johnstone said the reference likely speaks to the necessity to keep superiors "in the know" on policy development.

'SENSITIVE' STAND

NDP MP Libby Davies applauded the military chaplains' progressive, "sensitive" stand.

"This shows how while the Liberal government has dragged its feet for so long, every institution in the country is dealing with this. Gay marriage is a reality," she said.

But Derek Rogusky, VP of family policy for Focus on the Family, raised concerns about the ability to protect religious freedom and worried how the policy might create stress on bases.

"You already see the division across the country, and now you're going to bring that right on the base of a military, where cohesion and unity is a key aspect of their success," he said.

kathleen.harris@tor.sunpub.com

 

[Soleman]

Wow,  This ought to raise some opinions.

Personally I have no problem with people that choose this lifestyle.  Whatever floats your boat just don't ask me to dance at your wedding.  The issue with this is will it undermine morale?  The army still hasn't gotten past the "gay soldier". 

I know a couple of traditional MSC that have deployed or been posted to the same unit and been under the microscope. My wife and I are a MSC, she is an Officer, myself a Jnco and in a request to extend my tour when we were deployed one comment actually made by the chain was MSC should not deploy together it will undermine the cohesion, morale and welfare of the troops.  If a traditional MSC can cause these problems, what would a gay MSC do?

You always have the career manager issue as well.  One half of the couple gets posted so the CM for the spouse has to find a position for them.  People always grumble about favourtism there, especially after soldiers have been told there is no postings for that yr.  I think a gay MSC will have twice the hardship.  Everyone knows there is policy in place about harassment, but it is still out there and people, higher ups included turn a blind eye.

I have known a couple of "gay soldiers" and they did there job better than most, but that didn't matter.  The rest of the soldiers couldn't get past that lifestyle.  They couldn't see the work the soldier was doing because their mind was filled with the stereo typical picture of "gay" and their mind was already made up.

IMHO though I doubt anyone involved in an alternate lifstyle would come forward in the military and marry.  How long did the sex change guy last? 

 

[chaos75]

Actually the "sex change guy" is still in, I just saw her this summer while passing through on a flight.  Its a free country and thats why the current government is respecting the charter and the rights of gays and lesbians to get married.  Since the military represents the government it is only natural that same sex marrige should be allowed here.  I think the answer is simlple, if your all for it fine, if your not fine, either way keep your opinions to yourself.  However, I dont believe that any minister can actually be forced to perform ceremonies or blessings if it goes against their beliefs, am I wrong on this?

 

[GIJANE]

Actually the "sex change guy" is still in, I just saw her this summer while passing through on a flight.   Its a free country and thats why the current government is respecting the charter and the rights of gays and lesbians to get married.   Since the military represents the government it is only natural that same sex mamarriagehould be allowed here.   I think the answer is simsimplef your all for it fine, if your not fine, either way keep your opinions to yourself.   However, I dont believe that any minister can actually be forced to perform ceremonies or blessings if it goes against their beliefs, am I wrong on this?

Hmm i wonder if thats under the same line as the pharmacists who won't give out a perscription for birth control because she doesn't believe in it? IMHO if you wanted to do that specific job in the military or civilian life than do it and don't hurt other people because of "your beliefs", if it gets in the way of doing your job properly than i think it's time to seek out another job/career, as for gays in the military, who cares, they are people too, just as black, brown,white,catholic, protestant,Chinese, Japanese,Indian,  yadda yadda, it's time people realized we live in a world with many different "flavors", I have plenty gay friends in the military and they do the job just as well as anyone else.

JANE

 

[Armymedic]

Hmm i wonder if thats under the same line as the pharmacists who won't give out a perscription for birth control because she doesn't believe in

No, if thats a CF Pharmacist, that could be considered inappropriate, and actions would be taken, due to the policies set down by CFMO's.

it's time people realized we live in a world with many different "flavors", I have plenty gay friends in the military and they do the job just as well as anyone else.

Exactly...but in the CF we are all wearing a flag on our left shoulder, or have a Canada tab on our uniform. Therefore, we are all equal (with the exception of rank) in they eyes of the world. We ARE Canada.

Personally, I think this is an excellent explanation of their arcs:

The roughly 150 military chaplains who work on bases across the country aren't required to perform same-sex marriages if it's against their religious beliefs, but they have the responsibility to find a colleague to conduct the ceremony.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Hmm i wonder if thats under the same line as the pharmacists who won't give out a perscription for birth control because she doesn't believe in it? IMHO if you wanted to do that specific job in the military or civilian life than do it and don't hurt other people because of "your beliefs", if it gets in the way of doing your job properly than i think it's time to seek out another job/career, as for gays in the military, who cares, they are people too, just as black, brown,white,catholic, protestant,Chinese, Japanese,Indian,   yadda yadda, it's time people realized we live in a world with many different "flavors", I have plenty gay friends in the military and they do the job just as well as anyone else.

Well "Jane" when the 56 year old guy comes to pick up your 17 year-old daughter, just remember that statement,... just because someones line in the sand doesn't jive with your interpertation of where that line should be, doesn't give you the right to say they should quit their career.

 

[GIJANE]

And what does a 56 year old guy have to do with that statement?  What i meant was the world is full of different people, wether they are of different race or religion whatever, they are still capable of doing the same job as anyone else and we shouldn't think any different of them.

And what i mean about finding a different career is that if you can't do your job properly as it is suppossed to be done and your hurting other people while doing so (for example the pharmacist (who was civillian btw) who wouldn't hand out a perscription for BC because she "doesn't believe in it" is not doing her job)

It's a free country and i'm intitled to my opinion, thats all it is, no one has to agree with me, what did you expect posting this topic anyway?

Jane

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

No, what you suggested in your post is that the Padres/etc in the military should quit if they don't agree with your interpertation of marriage.

I think the reference to the 56 year old guy was obvious, remember when he is dating your 17 year old daughter its just a "different flavour"
[ your words].....so as not to hurt anybody you will just have to accept it.[or quit]

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Just wanted to add,...lets keep this on the military side of things,ie. the article and how it applys to the CF.
Yes, I know my posts are drifting too! :-[
Bruce

 

[Infanteer]

Three points:

1)  I think Armymedic clearly pointed out that no one was going to have to perform something that was against their religious doctrine, so don't worry about padres quitting in a huff:

"The roughly 150 military chaplains who work on bases across the country aren't required to perform same-sex marriages if it's against their religious beliefs, but they have the responsibility to find a colleague to conduct the ceremony."

2)  The story is probably going to be such a non-issue that I don't think it is worth the effort to debate.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

What happened to # 3?......

 

[aesop081]

What happened to # 3?......

Shush....your gonna make infanteer look bad........

 

[Armymedic]

I want to put forth a motion to remove Bruce's s*** stirring paddle (At first I thought this was a spoon, but it must be much larger then that).

 

[aesop081]

I want to put forth a motion to remove Bruce's s*** stirring paddle (At first I thought this was a spoon, but it must be much larger then that).

No, let him keep it......i like it when he stirs the pot.....all kinds of things tend to come out then

 

[Infanteer]

Ha...I wrote three and edited "2" out.  Funny, I was thinking "Ooohh, better change it from 2 to 3 so I don't look stupid....."  :dontpanic:

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote from aesop,
.all kinds of things tend to come out then .................an apt choice of words,...no? ;D

Armymedic,....can't help it, those paddles are grafted on.

 

[sigpig]

I think the reference to the 56 year old guy was obvious, remember when he is dating your 17 year old daughter its just a "different flavour"
[ your words].....so as not to hurt anybody you will just have to accept it.[or quit]

Bruce, are you a professional crap disturber or do you just play one on tv?

Being accepting of people because of their race, religion, or sexual orientation has absolutely nothing to do with 'accepting' a 56 year old dating your 17 year old daughter. You are trying a feint manoever!!!

Hey, who changed my post?!?! You can't say s*%t disturber? What kind of military people are we?

 

[aesop081]

Quote from aesop,
.all kinds of things tend to come out then .................an apt choice of words,...no? ;D

wow....no shit !!

 

[GIJANE]

lol just got that...... ;D


Jane

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
Hey, who changed my post?!?! You can't say s*%t disturber? What kind of military people are we?

...it changes many words automaticily,  ..and we are the kind who know that ANYONE of any age might be reading.

..and yes your right I was "manovering", but I'm not sure its fair to say someone should quit based on your interpertation of what is moral and what isn't.[remember if I'm not mistaken its not a written law yet.]
Personally I could care less, its all rather tiring actually when so many in the world have REAL problems.