Holk's Hi-Jack, split from Re: National Strategy for Victory in Iraq

[Holk]

I've heard that the Bush gang are planning to remove their troops from inside Iraq and move their troops to the borders to stop the inflow of weapons and insurgents from coming acrosss into Iraq.

Doesn't that sound a lot like what the US did in Vietnam with Cambodia,in trying to stop the flow of weapons down the Ho Chi Minh trail?
Look how well that worked out.

They've got to grow a pair down there in the US Congress and impeach Bush and Cheney,make a declaration that all oil in Iraq belongs to Iraqi's and not US oil companies and then bring in other countries including ours under a UN resolution to bring stability to Iraq,then Iraqi's will stand a good chance of not slipping into a civil war,that'll cost them possibly 100's of thousands of lives.
We can then bring the insurgency to a halt,and most importantly to us in the West,destroy Al Qaeda's group in Iraq(BTW they haven't been this well trained since the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan),by not allowing them a just motivation to be there.

I agree that Saddam needed to be removed from power,the motivation that Bush and Cheney had to remove Saddam was criminal and unjust,and
they should be taken to the war crimes tribunal.

Iraqi's are not better off because of Bush and Cheney's conquest.

It should have been done at a later time with the UN's support after going after countries like Saudi Arabia,Iran and Libya that give a lot of direct and indirect support to Al Qaeda

 

[Holk]

The only reason Al Qaeda is in Iraq and are somewhat tolerated by the locals is because Iraqi's want the US to leave them alone.
Remove the troops,and actually allow Iraqi's to control how their oil is controlled,and Al Qaeda's growth in Iraq will dwindle and they will eventually be removed by the locals and the government.

Al Qaeda's history is that after the Afghan war in the 80's they went back to their home countries,and when they came back they started to kill politicans and civillians that they considered to be "corrupted" by the West,and everyone got sick of their crap,as will most Iraqi's will if Al Qaeda tries to stay and force their beliefs on everyone,they either imprisoned them, kicked them out,or killed them,and the rest slinked away into the population waiting for such a situation that Bush and Cheney have provided.

A just war.Just like the case was with the Soviet's invading Afghanistan.

 

[Infanteer]

The only reason Al Qaeda is in Iraq and are somewhat tolerated by the locals is because Iraqi's want the US to leave them alone.
Remove the troops,and actually allow Iraqi's to control how their oil is controlled,and Al Qaeda's growth in Iraq will dwindle and they will eventually be removed by the locals and the government.

Al Qaeda's history is that after the Afghan war in the 80's they went back to their home countries,and when they came back they started to kill politicans and civillians that they considered to be "corrupted" by the West,and everyone got sick of their crap,as will most Iraqi's will if Al Qaeda tries to stay and force their beliefs on everyone,they either imprisoned them, kicked them out,or killed them,and the rest slinked away into the population waiting for such a situation that Bush and Cheney have provided.

A just war.Just like the case was with the Soviet's invading Afghanistan.

You need to read up on Al Qa'ida, its motives, and its history because not much of what you are saying jives with it.

 

[Holk]

Then provide some more education about them then,or the way you see them as.

Because most of the information I've got about Al Qaeda is from a four-part series by a BBC documentry called "The power of nightmares" which the doc is actually about how the neo-cons in the US have been lying and manipulating information to everyone about how dangerous regimes and groups around the world are,so that people will see them as the only group that can control government to protect them.
In the doc they got into how Al Qaeda was created and how they've progressed after the Afghan war,fighting their governments and trying to control the population,and since none of their tactics worked they've been since the mid 90's bombing foreign targets (I.E. African embassy bombings) to motivate the Muslim population worldwide to accept that they are the only ones to protect them.

That's what 9/11 was about,killing as many Americans as possible in a symbol of a US institution that they perceived that was a Muslims source of "corruption".

Like I said if you have a link that gives more insight into Al Qaeda then please let me know.


"The Power of Nightmares"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares

 

[Infanteer]

Like I said if you have a link that gives more insight into Al Qaeda then please let me know.

Well, you're in trouble if your only source for Al Qa'ida is one that actually targets the US neo-conservative establishment.  There is alot of stuff out there; follow this linked discussion for a better idea on what to look at:

Do you honestly think that the average communist insurgent knew the finer points of Marx and Engels?

Don't get focussed on Al Qa'ida though - it is only a part of the problem facing Iraq.

 

[48Highlander]

The only reason Al Qaeda is in Iraq and are somewhat tolerated by the locals is because Iraqi's want the US to leave them alone.
Remove the troops,and actually allow Iraqi's to control how their oil is controlled,and Al Qaeda's growth in Iraq will dwindle and they will eventually be removed by the locals and the government.

???

Because most of the information I've got about Al Qaeda is from a four-part series by a BBC documentry called "The power of nightmares" which the doc is actually about how the neo-cons in the US have been lying and manipulating information to everyone about how dangerous regimes and groups around the world are,so that people will see them as the only group that can control government to protect them.

:rofl:

That explains it.  What we have here is a graduate of the Michael Moore School of Global Politics.

 

[Infanteer]

That explains it.  What we have here is a graduate of the Michael Moore School of Global Politics.

And what a distinguished school that is:

 

[Holk]

Ya,how terrible of him it is to suggest that America should go after the sources of terrorism in Middle East and not that he's become one of the many dumbass Bush asskissers,who can't figure out that they're getting screwed over by Bush and Cheney :.

 

[Infanteer]

Yeah, imagine that....

 

[Holk]

 I read some of those posts,and I don"t see how what I've been saying is so inaccurate,I know that Bin Laden wants to build a Muslim empire based on fundelmetalist Islamic principles.

The fact that the authors of "The power of nightmares" target the US neo-con agenda,doesn't mean what they report on Al Qaeda is somehow innacurate,you might think they'd show Al Qaeda in a more favourful light,but they don't.

All else I can say is pay attention to the CBC and watch it next time they announce that they'll show it.
Then let me know what's wrong with the argument.

Or better yet let me know right now what's wrong with what I'm posting.

 

[48Highlander]

  I read some of those posts,and I don"t see how what I've been saying is so inaccurate,I know that Bin Laden wants to build a Muslim empire based on fundelmetalist Islamic principles.

The fact that the authors of "The power of nightmares" target the US neo-con agenda,doesn't mean what they report on Al Qaeda is somehow innacurate,you might think they'd show Al Qaeda in a more favourful light,but they don't.

All else I can say is pay attention to the CBC and watch it next time they announce that they'll show it.
Then let me know what's wrong with the argument.

Or better yet let me know right now what's wrong with what I'm posting.

How do I put this politely....

There are some comments/positions which are so....out of 'er....that you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on here who's interested in debating them.  Occasionaly an individual will swing by these forums who seems to beleive that the "neocons" are responsible for everything from the 9/11 attacks, to faking the moon landing, to oppressing Gallileo and starting the Crusades.  Your comments so far fall into the same general category.  If such "discussion" are your only reason for being here, you've come to the wrong site.

 

[Holk]

First of all my last post wasn't meant for you and second...
Why? Is this where Canadian soldiers who are American suckups and wannabes hang out or something?
So discusion outside of a warmongers mindset can't be challenged here?
We'll see about that.

Here's the real reason behind Bush and Cheney's invasion of Iraq.

http://www.rense.com/general34/realre.htm

 

[Infanteer]

Or better yet let me know right now what's wrong with what I'm posting.

To imply that the only thing keeping Al Qa'ida strong in Iraq is the American presence is foolish.  Much of the hardcore element of the Sunni minority sees the Shi'ites as a legitimate enemy (a tenet a Salafist thought) and sees a democratic government as a Shi'ite apostate government propped up by America.

Have you been watching the news?  For every attack on American soldier there are 3 attacks on other Iraqis.

Why? Is this where Canadian soldiers who are American suckups and wannabes hang out or something?
So discusion outside of a warmongers mindset can't be challenged here?
We'll see about that.

No, but this is a board where parroting the usual mindless anti-US rhetoric is frowned upon.  You're welcome to make the argument - find the member Britney Spears; that guy will give you an epee to play with.

If you insist on tarring us as suckups and wannabe and deriding our US brothers and allies - many who post on this site - then you are going to find the door right quick.  We've seen this tumbleweed blow through before and it doesn't usually last long.

 

[TCBF]

"Lemme guess, you also think that the CIA assassinated Kennedy too?"

- I'm, myself, partial to the Secret Service guy with the AR-15 resting on the windshield of the convertible chase car having an ND.

Exit strategy:  Fact is, you DON'T go home when you win.  The USA still has troops in Germany, Japan, Korea, etc.  Sure, the troops are brought back who fought the war, but the next generation gets to garrison the place. 

Tom

 

[George Wallace]

Then provide some more education about them then,or the way you see them as.
................... Like I said if you have a link that gives more insight into Al Qaeda then please let me know.

I don't know how you research, but here are just a few links to info on an Al Qaeda sponsored cell in Indonesia, the Jemaah Islamiyah:

http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=7&id=359700
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,179758,00.html
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-12-25-voa5.cfm
http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.php?index=1&story_id=61122
http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.php?index=1&story_id=61121
http://news.inq7.net/nation/index.php?index=1&story_id=61121
http://english.people.com.cn/200512/25/eng20051225_230695.html
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/12/24/indonesia-security051224.html
http://www.katu.com/news/story.asp?ID=81749
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=69525
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/3544511.html
http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20051223-120048-3306r.htm
http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/051223/15/3xh0p.html
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,17652433%5E954,00.html
http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?area=/breaking_news/other_news/&articleid=259873
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1343429.cms
http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=166580700&p=y6658y4x6
http://news.inq7.net/regions/index.php?index=1&story_id=60637
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level.php?cat=Security&loid=8.0.241636336&par=0
http://news.inq7.net/breaking/index.php?index=2&story_id=60567
http://news.balita.ph/html/article.php/20051220183632579

These are only links for the period 20 -26 Dec 2005.  Seven days!  One Week!

 

[48Highlander]

- I'm, myself, partial to the Secret Service guy with the AR-15 resting on the windshield of the convertible chase car having an ND.

Naw, if that were the case you would have been able to hear him yell "contact!". 

 

[Holk]

Infanteer,

So that's Bush and Cheney's excuse now? They say that they have to occupy Iraq,which didn't have to be occupied in the first place,because the Sunni's will allow Al Qaeda to stay?
I still can't see the Sunni's supporting Al Qaeda as hosts when all the fighting is over as being very realistic,considering that the US would probably bomb them around the clock if they did such a foolish thing.

I still say pulling out will do more good than staying,the Sunni's won't survive when they have their own country,if they'd continue to host Al Qaeda past fighting the Shi'ites.

 

[Infanteer]

I still say pulling out will do more good than staying,

Sure.  Anything else?

 

[George Wallace]

I still say pulling out will do more good than staying,.......

Where would Germany, Europe as a whole and Japan be today, had the Allies packed up and left after the end of the War?  It took over fifty years to return Europe and Japan to any form of normality after WW II.  How do you expect the same to happen in Iraq or Afghanistan overnight?  Do you have a "Magic Wand" or something?

 

[Holk]

Iraqi's are not unless you can provide some other evidence that that do,do not want the US in their country,they know why the US invaded their country and they will not accept them,even getting rid of Saddam isn't enough.
Besides Iraq isn't a threat to anyone,if they do become dangerous,the US with a credible coalition can then go back in and fight them.
The US has no moral ground at all.
This was/is all about increasing the US empire,not something Just,like it is in the case with Afghanistan or Japan and Germany.

If the same situation happened to us as what has happened to Iraq we wouldn't put up with what the US is doing now either.

Imagine the uproar there would have been if the French stayed in America and dictated how Americans should live after they helped them to defeat the British.


And for the record I'm not a university student that's upset that the whole world hasn't accepted Marxist Leninism.
I just see the US for what they really stand for,and that's for corporations.

I like that Canada is free-market country and will/would fight to keep us that way.

Also I don't hate soldiers,some I can't stand,but those are mostly few and far between.
After all I was a cadet for 5 years,being sort of in the military were the best times in my life.