Hard-pressed army forced to train with paintball guns

[McG]

... if it can train someone with basic tactics, and how to operate as a team . . .

Blank rounds do this much.

 

[Bomber]

I am still amazed that the made promotional posters heralding that RWR paintball adventure.  I can see the realism of using a plastic, air powered, 200 round blow gun.  Watch those paintball game son TV and tell me that is real training, those guys just dump about 10 000 rounds at the opponents and are amazed when they actually hit someone.  Even with no ammo, just a C7 with a bolt in it, and a bunch of tennis balls, I have got better training than what I would expect from one of those limitless free for alls.  Simunition is a great training tool, once the kits are in service for the support weapons, training will change, and a bunch of this macho lamo crap about training will be replaced with scars, blood, and lessons learned.  Once a C6 and C9 start spitting pain, a lot of tactics will change, no more just running up to a machine gunner and firing your couple of rounds, being declared the victor, and then taking over the captured machine gun.

 

[Haggis]

MILES gear is a GI-NORMOUS logisitics exercise in just getting the stuff to the area, onto the people, calibrated, etc...   and, IMO, not worth the effort for a two day ex.

I disagree.

33 CBG got about 3 companies worth of MILES on loan from the US Army for an exercise in late April 05.  I was an umpire on that ex.  They drove the stuff from Ft Drum to CFB Petawawa. On friday evening they issued and calibrated it production line fashion during inclearance (at which time they AAG'd everyone, and also issued IMPs, blank ammo and EXCON stores).

I went off like a well oiled machine. Logisitcally challenging?  Yes.  Worth the effort?  You betcha!

 

[mcnutt_p]

Blank rounds do this much.

"Maj. Chris Lemay also said the 150 soldiers who participated, most of them reservists, could have used blanks in their C-7 rifles but the operation would have been less realistic because blanks give no indication whether a target has been hit.

â Å“The exercise had to do with house clearing â ” you kick the door open and fire,â ? Mr. Lemay said.

â Å“With blanks, you're not sure you're doing the right thing because you don't know if you hit your enemy.â ?

I understand what you are saying, about blank round, as we used them in Meaford and they worked. Alright they couldn't get Simunition or MILES gear.

no more just running up to a machine gunner and firing your couple of rounds, being declared the victor, and then taking over the captured machine gun.

I think that was the whole point of using paintball, yes it is not effective, but it was at the time, what they needed. At least the were not using airsoft.

 

[392]

â Å“The exercise had to do with house clearing â ” you kick the door open and fire,â ? Mr. Lemay said.

This is NOT how you do house clearing in this day and age. As I'm sure the Op Apollo / OP Athena pers who have done raids and US pers on this board with operational experience in Iraq can attest, there are friendlies or non combatants in the buildings that are being searched or "cleared", and indiscriminate firing after "kicking" open the door can turn a so so day into a really bad one.

As far as no simunition kits available, I call BS. If 2CER can get sim kits for a troop level (platoon) exercise, then I'm sure a reserve CBG could have gotten them as well for workups to a larger multinational ex. Besides, helos are hard are not the easiest to get, so if LFAA deemed those important enough for the execution of the "mission", why not deem simunition kits as important? Sounds like the ball got dropped somewhere along the line.

Known under the trade name Simunition, the 5.56-calibre soft bullets are manufactured by SNC Technologies Inc.

I'm surprised no one picked up on this yet - Simunition is not 5.56, it's 9mm - hence why you have to use their upper receiver and magazines when simunition is in play.

 

[devil39]

I'm surprised no one picked up on this yet - Simunition is not 5.56, it's 9mm - hence why you have to use their upper receiver and magazines when simunition is in play.

Simunition is available in both calibres.

 

[Michael OLeary]

This is NOT how you do house clearing in this day and age. As I'm sure the Op Apollo / OP Athena pers who have done raids and US pers on this board with operational experience in Iraq can attest, there are friendlies or non combatants in the buildings that are being searched or "cleared", and indiscriminate firing after "kicking" open the door can turn a so so day into a really bad one.

Considering the readiness of many on the boards to emphasize the importance of maintaining 'war-fighting' skills vice those variants used in peace support ops; there's nothing wrong with a little old school door kicking and house clearing. It's in mission preparation and rehearsals that troops will have confirmed to them threat levels and permissive behaviour.

As far as no simunition kits available, I call BS. If 2CER can get sim kits for a troop level (platoon) exercise, then I'm sure a reserve CBG could have gotten them as well for workups to a larger multinational ex. Besides, helos are hard are not the easiest to get, so if LFAA deemed those important enough for the execution of the "mission", why not deem simunition kits as important? Sounds like the ball got dropped somewhere along the line.

Actually, Exercise SOUTHBOUND TROOPER, for the five years it has been conducted, is a unit led and executed exercise run by the Princess Louise Fusiliers. It is not an Area or Brigade HQ conducted training activity. In my experience with the exercise, it received little special support or prioritization of effort from the Area HQ short of the usual staffing of unit submited requests.

Rather then criticizing without supporting facts, perhaps you should admire how efficient the reserve unit's training capability is to organize not only these supporting activities but the annual exercise to Fort Pickett (which had IIRC 350 Canadian participants and nearly as many US participants this year) within its existing budget. Don't fall into the trap of accepting the media's negative spin, they also failed to identify and emphasize the unique accomplishments of this annual training endeavour.

 

[Haggis]

Simunition is available in both calibres.

Sure is.  Lots of great info at: http://www.simunition.com/index.php?section_id=51

 

[KevinB]

Considering the readiness of many on the boards to emphasize the importance of maintaining 'war-fighting' skills vice those variants used in peace support ops; there's nothing wrong with a little old school door kicking and house clearing. It's in mission preparation and rehearsals that troops will have confirmed to them threat levels and permissive behaviour.

Sorry thats crap - the old school methods are dangerous - it is recommend by NCO's and Officers not familiar with newer methods.  Even in high intensity situations there is no excsue for the boot door and spray crap.  It is dangerous to both our troops and any potnetial non combatants in the area.  Got a house you know there are no friends in - BURN it - the flaming marshmellows will run out when they have had enough.  Our job is killing with the least loss to friendlies, so NEVER reinforce or teach a fault.

IF you try precision entry versus the old school blaster method - you will notice two things - Precision kills quicker with less rounds, Spraying wasted a lot of ammo for limited sucesses and many failures.
This can be painfully observed by catwalking a unit doing entry's with sim kits force on force or live against fig/ tgt's.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Actually, since neither of us were there, and the news story offers very few details; neither of us should presume how indiscriminate the firing during the clearing drills may or may not have been.

 

[Haggis]

This exercise was no big secret and wasn't "covered up".  In fact the Maple Leaf gave it a full page: http://www.dnd.ca/site/Community/MapleLeaf/vol_8/vol8_09/809_13.pdf

The focus of the G&M article isnt the training methodology, it's the damn paintball gear.  So what???

The fact is, paintball or not, the units involved at least made an attempt to give the troops some relevant, meaningful and different training.  Clearly, they even filed a PXR that the G&M reporter got hold of.

This ex probably resulted in unintended recruting and retention benefits for the units involved, without expending more scarce Class A $$$ sitting in a mall passing out flyers or visiting high schools at lunch hour.

They tried.... at least give them credit for that.

 

[2 Cdo]

It's really quite simple, simmunition and miles are training tools, paintball is a game! :threat:

 

[purple peguin]

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt... Then its a sport  ;D .

 

[392]

Simunition is available in both calibres.

My apologies - the kits I've used are 9mm and require the transfer of upper receivers.

 

[392]

Rather then criticizing without supporting facts, perhaps you should admire how efficient the reserve unit's training capability is to organize not only these supporting activities but the annual exercise to Fort Pickett (which had IIRC 350 Canadian participants and nearly as many US participants this year) within its existing budget. Don't fall into the trap of accepting the media's negative spin, they also failed to identify and emphasize the unique accomplishments of this annual training endeavour.

With or without supporting facts, the fact is they still trained without the proper equipment. I am sorry if that doesn't make an ounce of difference to you, but it does to me. Too often I have seen the "let's make do with what we have" attitude with notional or improper equipment for the job. I am of the belief that if you're gonna do it, do it right or don't do it at all. I am sorry, but paintballing (regardless of location, tactics, etc.) IS NOT the same as training with the proper equipment.

I congratulate them on being able to hold this ex in the US while staying within budget, but I don't recall that being an issue. 

 

[mcnutt_p]

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt... Then its a sport    ;D .

I don't think it works in this context though.

I do not think thought that it is just reserves using paintball. I've gone to H-110 to pick up parts and got back to work and opened the tri-wall and it would be Eagle Brand paintballs intended for 2 Svc Bn.

 

[Haggis]

With or without supporting facts, the fact is they still trained without the proper equipment. I am sorry if that doesn't make an ounce of difference to you, but it does to me. Too often I have seen the "let's make do with what we have" attitude with notional or improper equipment for the job. I am of the belief that if you're gonna do it, do it right or don't do it at all. I am sorry, but paintballing (regardless of location, tactics, etc.) IS NOT the same as training with the proper equipment.

It would be nice if a planner or participant in this exercise could weigh in with some facts because:

- "Without supporting facts" we will never know if they tried to get the proper equipment.

- "Without supporting facts" we will never know if they were turned down at the last minute and had to improvise rather than cancel so that 150 odd soldiers wouldn't get screwed out of a weekends pay from the Army and/or the civvy job they booked off so they can train.

- "Without supporting facts" we also will never know if their Reg F staff deemed the ex a success (some of whom could have been UOI) and why.

The Reserves and, to a lesser but still significant extent, the Regular Force have been using the "let's make do with what we have" attitude for over 20 years.  Improvisation and adaptability is what makes good exercises great in our Army.

 

[McG]

... if it can train someone with basic tactics, and how to operate as a team . . .

Blank rounds do this much.

"Maj. Chris Lemay also said the 150 soldiers who participated, most of them reservists, could have used blanks in their C-7 rifles but the operation would have been less realistic because blanks give no indication whether a target has been hit.

The exercise had to do with house clearing you kick the door open and fire, Mr. Lemay said.

With blanks, you're not sure you're doing the right thing because you don't know if you hit your enemy.

I understand what you are saying, about blank round, as we used them in Meaford and they worked. Alright they couldn't get Simunition or MILES gear.

I think that was the whole point of using paintball, yes it is not effective, but it was at the time, what they needed. At least the were not using airsoft.

mcnutt,
Your getting your arguments crossed.  If the intent was to "train someone with basic tactics, and how to operate as a team" then blanks would have been the better option.  However, with a different rate of fire, different balistics, different sights, different drills, etc how well can a paint gun show where a C7 would have shot?

 

[Steel Badger]

I have had the oppourtunity to use Miles and Simunition...

While sim covers the close range battle, it falls short in covering the entirety of the battle space (it also has those Helmets, Quick-Fogging, Useless,  Mark6)...

Miles (When it works!) allows the operations at most ranges...again...when it works....

Surely a trained Umpire / Observer cadre armed with motorolas could take the place of MIles etc in situations where those systems are not available or of limited use.

From personal experience I will say that without competent Umpires / Battle Controllers, even Sim degenerates into a shoot em up.....The value of bang leads to ouch falls off when a unit transitions from battle exercises to "playing guns"...

I agree with some of bretheren from the Regular Army that paintball / sim appears to be a ploy in creating "interesting" training for the reserves...
It's a very funny thing tho that higher HQ's version of "interesting training" is not always the same one as held by the private soldier: to quote good old Rudyard Kipling : "Tommy aint a bloody fool....You bet that Tommy sees!"

My NCO's and soldier's are not fooled by claims that just having SiM etc will "make" the ex.....and they expect their leadership (me, along with others) to provide them with meaningful, relevant training that they can be proud off, WITHOUT trying to masquerade as Scuba-Ninjas....

I know that I have put alot of thought and effort into creating a Battle Controller staff for exercises..
Note: i am not talking about Soviet Style exercise choreography.....rather the provision of Weapons Effect Umpires as part of a Battle Controllers. The Battle control cadre would have a command cell and several dets. They would funciton as EXCON as well as Umpires in an integrated staff that would exercise ALL levels  of the unit....

But this is hard work at my level especially when my colleagues in our RSS det barely keep their heads above water fighting to keep my soldier's equipped at a basic level...

*****PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT crying that "The mean old regs took our kit."  My soldiers and I understand clearly the requirement to fully equip and train the units heading overseas.......(Especially as more and more of our own are accompanying you)****

To sum up......

Just Paintball is just playing.....and Miles without a coherent FTX structure and Battle Control staff can also be "just playing"
The leaders in the reserve world owe it to our soldiers and our regiments to listen to comments like those posted by KevinB and others We should carefully consider ALL ideas and criticism........The final goal being a highly trained soldier..........

SB

 

[Roche]

This reporter seems to want to make the army only look bad here. It was a good training weekend, until it came to the paintball. however, once people got a hold of those paintball guns things turned into a game, Kinda totally got rid of any realism that was there, plus the enemy force weren't thinking about realism at all and decided not to "play the game" properly (as in act as if you are actually being fired upon with real ammo). Simunition would have been a much better training aid though.  Things are a million times more serious when it's in use because it can easily hurt people, you'll know if you've ever been hit with the stuff. Along with that, sim makes people acountable for the rounds they're firing.