Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[OldSolduer]

Ok, fair point on Jordan - but how would you recommend the Palestinian issue be resolved?

The fanatical portion of the Palestinians won't allow anything or deal that makes peace with Israel. And I think a good many Palestinians are fantatics.
They won't change their minds and refuse to change the subject.

 

[jackamela]

At which point, everyone excuses himself to go to the bathroom.

It certainly has proved itself to be a fairly intractable problem.

QV probably has the best take on it (above). A good first step for the Palestinians might be to overthrow Hamas.

 

[brihard]

It certainly has proved itself to be a fairly intractable problem.

QV probably has the best take on it (above). A good first step for the Palestinians might be to overthrow Hamas.

Yup. Easier said than done, unfortunately. Hamas and its mindset need to go- but it’s not realistic to make any future rapprochement contingent on this being completely or mostly accomplished before any reciprocal steps by Israel.

The West Bank settler situation is the obvious low hanging fruit the Israelis could pluck to show good faith.

 

[jackamela]

Yup. Easier said than done, unfortunately. Hamas and its mindset need to go- but it’s not realistic to make any future rapprochement contingent on this being completely or mostly accomplished before any reciprocal steps by Israel.

The West Bank settler situation is the obvious low hanging fruit the Israelis could pluck to show good faith.

Perhaps (on the WB) - but the strategic dilemma for Israel is always going to be the necessity of keeping two sets of books.

Tolerance and making concessions, as a display of good faith, tends to play well in the Western worldview, and may lead to reciprocal good faith if you are dealing with, say, France or Australia.

The Arab Muslim worldview is different - concessions and good faith pay-it-forward efforts tend to be read in that part of the world as weakness, even an invitation to attack.

A good part of the intelligence which was used to perpetrate Oct 7th came from workers who made the daily trek across the border to work in and around the settlements Hamas would then attack on the 7th. Those were people who were given employment by the Israelis whose houses and villages they then mapped out for Hamas to help facilitate the subsequent massacre).

So the Israelis (not withstanding their own partially European mindset) are understandably reluctant to telegraph anything that may be misread as weakness.

 

[QV]

It certainly has proved itself to be a fairly intractable problem.

QV probably has the best take on it (above). A good first step for the Palestinians might be to overthrow Hamas.

Agree, as a start Palestinians need to overthrow Hamas or at least flee Hamas en masse denouncing them all the way, allowing Israel to root out and delete every last Hamas member.

As of right now a large percent support Hamas as evident in videos. Wrong approach. It's one society against another and since this is real life, and not a progressive fantasy, there can really only be one winner. It won't be Palestine.

Palestine has two options; lose peacefully or lose violently. It's choosing to lose violently.

 

[jackamela]

Agree, as a start Palestinians need to overthrow Hamas or at least flee Hamas en masse denouncing them all the way, allowing Israel to root out and delete every last Hamas member.

As of right now a large percent support Hamas as evident in videos. Wrong approach. It's one society against another and since this is real life, and not a progressive fantasy, there can really only be one winner. It won't be Palestine.

Palestine has two options; lose peacefully or lose violently. It's choosing to lose violently.

Again, very sound analysis.

 

[Eaglelord17]

So at this point we have went from two-state solution to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the region they live in. Makes perfect sense.

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region and that would also resolve the fighting, likely more permanently than having the Palestinians leave. It’s also a lot easier for the Israelis to leave than the Palestinians.

I am not proposing kicking either group out, just pointing out that demanding people leave their homes because someone else claims to have some several thousand year old claim is absurd. Should we kick everyone but the natives out of Canada by the same logic?

 

[Good2Golf]

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region and that would also resolve the fighting, likely more permanently than having the Palestinians leave. It’s also a lot easier for the Israelis to leave than the Palestinians.

Uhhhh, they did (Israel leaving Gaza and handing the administration of the region to the PA) in 2005. Look where that got them.

 

[jackamela]

So at this point we have went from two-state solution to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the region they live in. Makes perfect sense.

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region and that would also resolve the fighting, likely more permanently than having the Palestinians leave. It’s also a lot easier for the Israelis to leave than the Palestinians.

I am not proposing kicking either group out, just pointing out that demanding people leave their homes because someone else claims to have some several thousand year old claim is absurd. Should we kick everyone but the natives out of Canada by the same logic?

I don't think the comparison stands.

If Israel lost a war with the Palestinians they would indeed be expelled. (Those that survived the no doubt horrific aftermath would, anyway). The Palestinians have lost a war they started.

As to the separate issue of the First Nations people of Canada, best leave that to a separate thread.

The issue isn't that Palestinians should (or should not) vacate the Gaza strip because of a 3,000 year old claim - the issue is that the Palestinians elected Hamas as a government, knowing presumably that Hamas has in its Charter the goal of eradicating Israel, and that Hamas launched a genocidal campaign of war against Israel on October 7th.

In short, you can't really expect to launch a war of extermination, comprehensively lose that war, and then expect to quietly return to the status quo ante.

The consequences are as yet unclear, but actions do have consequences, particularly extreme actions.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I don't think the comparison stands.

If Israel lost a war with the Palestinians they would indeed be expelled. (Those that survived the no doubt horrific aftermath would, anyway). The Palestinians have lost a war they started.

As to the separate issue of the First Nations people of Canada, best leave that to a separate thread.

The issue isn't that Palestinians should (or should not) vacate the Gaza strip because of a 3,000 year old claim - the issue is that the Palestinians elected Hamas as a government, knowing presumably that Hamas has in its Charter the goal of eradicating Israel, and that Hamas launched a genocidal campaign of war against Israel on October 7th.

In short, you can't really expect to launch a war of extermination, comprehensively lose that war, and then expect to quietly return to the status quo ante.

The consequences are as yet unclear, but actions do have consequences, particularly extreme actions.

20k dead, most your population displaced, and all your infrastructure destroyed is a pretty severe consequence.

Israel would get a lot farther with a post-war Germany style re-education program than it’s current policies.

 

[Quirky]

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region and that would also resolve the fighting, likely more permanently than having the Palestinians leave. It’s also a lot easier for the Israelis to leave than the Palestinians.

You could move all of Israel to Florida, turn the entirety of Israel into a Palestine state and they would still elect terrorists. It's in their nature.

 

[jackamela]

20k dead, most your population displaced, and all your infrastructure destroyed is a pretty severe consequence.

Israel would get a lot farther with a post-war Germany style re-education program than it’s current policies.

I agree with the second part of this - Germany and Japan are both now model democracies.

But both countries were (and arguably had to be) totally, utterly devastated militarily before that rebuild could begin.

As it stands, Hamas are still pretending they won.

Unless Hamas are totally obliterated and the Palestinians are forced to confront the fact that they are never going to be able or allowed to eradicate Israel, that rebuild cannot commence.

 

[abduly85]

Guys, my phone is really starting to run low on space from all the screenshots I'm taking of all of the openly genocidal and ethnic cleansing comments in this thread!!

Hear me out, and take it from a Palestinian, the solution is simple but it requires the will of the international world (mainly the US) to pressure the Israelis (and Palestinians) to abide by international law and all of the UN resolutions that Israel has been ignoring.
And they're mainly 4:

1. 1967 borders,
2. Right of return,
3. East Jerusalem as the Capital of Palestine, and
4. Dismantlement of illegal settlements

The moment you do that, all Palestinian resistance movements will cease to exist organically...

Speaking of the right of return for the Palestinians, people here argue that it shouldn't exist because historically people have been kicked out from their regions at one point or another. Sure, but then can someone explain to me, why can a Jew from Saskatoon with no connection to the middle east (except for a 3,000 yr old reference in the Torah) make aliyah to Israel & have full citizenship rights while my father who was ethnically cleansed in 1948 is denied his UN sanctioned right of return?

And sure, I have no quarrel with Israel uprooting Hamas, go right ahead... But it's clear that Israel is not a war with Hamas, it's at war with all Palestinians with over 30,000 killed and Gaza levelled (in Gaza and the West Bank).

It's really a red herring blaming everything on Hamas. Hamas only came to power in 2007. What was the excuse for 40 years between 1967 and 2007? The PLO?
The PLO laid down its armed resistance approach in 1993 when they signed the Oslo accords, and what was the result? Over 750,000 extremist jewish settlers and illegal settlements in the west Bank.

Please be impartial and see Israel for what it is. A Zionist colonial project (and these are the words of Theodore Herzl, the father of modern political Zionism!).

This has nothing to do with Jews or Judaism (as much as Israel would like to be). There tens of thousands of anti-zionist Jews all over the world (if not more).
And please note that the middle east is not part of the Jewish-European narrative & the Jewish-Muslim context is completely different. They do not feel historical guilt towards Jewish minorities.
When Jews were suffering in the Holocaust in the first half of the 20th century, the Jews of Iraq/Morocco were ministers in Arab governments.

In fact, the "Golden Age" for Jews was when they lived under Islamic rule (9 & 10th century) in Muslim Spain. Then when the Church & Christian forces came (Reconquista), Jews were forced to either convert or leave. Many were expelled to Muslim regions (Ottoman regions and Morroco), also known as Sephardic Jews.

Excuse the rant. But you need a Palestinian Canadian voice on this thread every now and then.

 

[KevinB]

So at this point we have went from two-state solution to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the region they live in. Makes perfect sense.

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region and that would also resolve the fighting, likely more permanently than having the Palestinians leave. It’s also a lot easier for the Israelis to leave than the Palestinians.

I am not proposing kicking either group out, just pointing out that demanding people leave their homes because someone else claims to have some several thousand year old claim is absurd. Should we kick everyone but the natives out of Canada by the same logic?

Look at the history since the creation of Israel.
How many times have Arab countries attacked them?

There is no other Jewish homeland - and as everyone should remember from WWII, there was a reason that it was established -- there are lots of other Arab/Muslim countries that could take Palestinians in - but they won't as one of two things exists 1) they don't want them to destabilize their country and/or) they enjoy having the Palestinians causing issues for Israelis.

 

[brihard]

Guys, my phone is really starting to run low on space from all the screenshots I'm taking of all of the openly genocidal and ethnic cleansing comments in this thread!!

Hear me out, and take it from a Palestinian, the solution is simple but it requires the will of the international world (mainly the US) to pressure the Israelis (and Palestinians) to abide by international law and all of the UN resolutions that Israel has been ignoring.
And they're mainly 4:

1. 1967 borders,
2. Right of return,
3. East Jerusalem as the Capital of Palestine, and
4. Dismantlement of illegal settlements

The moment you do that, all Palestinian resistance movements will cease to exist organically...

Speaking of the right of return for the Palestinians, people here argue that it shouldn't exist because historically people have been kicked out from their regions at one point or another. Sure, but then can someone explain to me, why can a Jew from Saskatoon with no connection to the middle east (except for a 3,000 yr old reference in the Torah) make aliyah to Israel & have full citizenship rights while my father who was ethnically cleansed in 1948 is denied his UN sanctioned right of return?

And sure, I have no quarrel with Israel uprooting Hamas, go right ahead... But it's clear that Israel is not a war with Hamas, it's at war with all Palestinians with over 30,000 killed and Gaza levelled (in Gaza and the West Bank).

It's really a red herring blaming everything on Hamas. Hamas only came to power in 2007. What was the excuse for 40 years between 1967 and 2007? The PLO?
The PLO laid down its armed resistance approach in 1993 when they signed the Oslo accords, and what was the result? Over 750,000 extremist jewish settlers and illegal settlements in the west Bank.

Please be impartial and see Israel for what it is. A Zionist colonial project (and these are the words of Theodore Herzl, the father of modern political Zionism!).

This has nothing to do with Jews or Judaism (as much as Israel would like to be). There tens of thousands of anti-zionist Jews all over the world (if not more).
And please note that the middle east is not part of the Jewish-European narrative & the Jewish-Muslim context is completely different. They do not feel historical guilt towards Jewish minorities.
When Jews were suffering in the Holocaust in the first half of the 20th century, the Jews of Iraq/Morocco were ministers in Arab governments.

In fact, the "Golden Age" for Jews was when they lived under Islamic rule (9 & 10th century) in Muslim Spain. Then when the Church & Christian forces came (Reconquista), Jews were forced to either convert or leave. Many were expelled to Muslim regions (Ottoman regions and Morroco), also known as Sephardic Jews.

Excuse the rant. But you need a Palestinian Canadian voice on this thread every now and then.

You’ve still ignored repeated questions about where you stand on Hamas’ attack of October 7th, and how it was conducted- that being the original subject of this thread.

Silence can be loud when it speaks.

 

[Jarnhamar]

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region

Palestinians can pick a direction on a compass and quickly find a country full of supporters. Israel can't.

 

[jackamela]

Guys, my phone is really starting to run low on space from all the screenshots I'm taking of all of the openly genocidal and ethnic cleansing comments in this thread!!

Hear me out, and take it from a Palestinian, the solution is simple but it requires the will of the international world (mainly the US) to pressure the Israelis (and Palestinians) to abide by international law and all of the UN resolutions that Israel has been ignoring.
And they're mainly 4:

1. 1967 borders,
2. Right of return,
3. East Jerusalem as the Capital of Palestine, and
4. Dismantlement of illegal settlements

The moment you do that, all Palestinian resistance movements will cease to exist organically...

Speaking of the right of return for the Palestinians, people here argue that it shouldn't exist because historically people have been kicked out from their regions at one point or another. Sure, but then can someone explain to me, why can a Jew from Saskatoon with no connection to the middle east (except for a 3,000 yr old reference in the Torah) make aliyah to Israel & have full citizenship rights while my father who was ethnically cleansed in 1948 is denied his UN sanctioned right of return?

And sure, I have no quarrel with Israel uprooting Hamas, go right ahead... But it's clear that Israel is not a war with Hamas, it's at war with all Palestinians with over 30,000 killed and Gaza levelled (in Gaza and the West Bank).

It's really a red herring blaming everything on Hamas. Hamas only came to power in 2007. What was the excuse for 40 years between 1967 and 2007? The PLO?
The PLO laid down its armed resistance approach in 1993 when they signed the Oslo accords, and what was the result? Over 750,000 extremist jewish settlers and illegal settlements in the west Bank.

Please be impartial and see Israel for what it is. A Zionist colonial project (and these are the words of Theodore Herzl, the father of modern political Zionism!).

This has nothing to do with Jews or Judaism (as much as Israel would like to be). There tens of thousands of anti-zionist Jews all over the world (if not more).
And please note that the middle east is not part of the Jewish-European narrative & the Jewish-Muslim context is completely different. They do not feel historical guilt towards Jewish minorities.
When Jews were suffering in the Holocaust in the first half of the 20th century, the Jews of Iraq/Morocco were ministers in Arab governments.

In fact, the "Golden Age" for Jews was when they lived under Islamic rule (9 & 10th century) in Muslim Spain. Then when the Church & Christian forces came (Reconquista), Jews were forced to either convert or leave. Many were expelled to Muslim regions (Ottoman regions and Morroco), also known as Sephardic Jews.

Excuse the rant. But you need a Palestinian Canadian voice on this thread every now and then.

Do you think that Hamas, the government elected by the Palestinians, were justified in commiting crimes against humanity on October 7th? And of course the waves of Gazan civilians who poured across the border right behind Hamas to commit identical crimes.

Israel has won the war that Hamas started. Yet you think Israel should surrender.

It just isn't realistic.

 

[KevinB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1780705230474359111

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ok, fair point on Jordan - but how would you recommend the Palestinian issue be resolved?

Push them into Syria. Assad could accept them and give them land taken from rebels and use them to bolster his security forces. Syria was the only Arab country to give Palestinians refugees anything close to Citizenship, they got a 2nd class citizenship, but it was much better than any other Arab country.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

So at this point we have went from two-state solution to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the region they live in. Makes perfect sense.

By the same regard we could send the Israelis from the region and that would also resolve the fighting, likely more permanently than having the Palestinians leave. It’s also a lot easier for the Israelis to leave than the Palestinians.

I am not proposing kicking either group out, just pointing out that demanding people leave their homes because someone else claims to have some several thousand year old claim is absurd. Should we kick everyone but the natives out of Canada by the same logic?

Palestinians and Jews in the region both started with basically the same set of cards, the Palestinians had a slightly bigger hand. Had it just been those two fighting, we might have ended up with a two State solution early on. However Arab Nationalism was the flavour of the day and Egypt, Syria and Jordan all decided to get in on the action. It was those nations that pushed the Palestinians to flee out of the way, so they could crush the Jews. But the Jews had burned their boats and smashed their cooking pots, and at the end of the day the State of Israel survived and prospered. Eventually Egypt and Jordan saw the light and made peace. Syria instead destroyed and occupied Lebanon and needed israel to remain an enemy to divert their people from their abuses and oppression.