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Hamas invaded Israel 2023

  • Thread starter Thread starter McG
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"troubling" and "I don't think that's helpful" are pretty weak words to use but overall that's a solid observation from the PM.
As others have mentioned here, Canada is walking a tightrope as we were one of the main pushers for the ICC in general, but also allied at the hip with the US.

This is Biden’s complete statement:
The ICC prosecutor’s application for arrest warrants against Israeli leaders is outrageous. And let me be clear: whatever this prosecutor might imply, there is no equivalence — none — between Israel and Hamas. We will always stand with Israel against threats to its security.

I wouldn’t want to be JT’s speechwriter because the words can’t be seen as too strong to either side. Our govts pushed to have the ICC as a thing in the 2000s, so we can’t be seen to shut them down. But then we can’t be seen to be too far opposed to the US. The PM’s statements seem to be mealy-mouthed and vague…which is what we probably need to do at this point.
 
As others have mentioned here, Canada is walking a tightrope as we were one of the main pushers for the ICC in general, but also allied at the hip with the US.

This is Biden’s complete statement:


I wouldn’t want to be JT’s speechwriter because the words can’t be seen as too strong to either side. Our govts pushed to have the ICC as a thing in the 2000s, so we can’t be seen to shut them down. But then we can’t be seen to be too far opposed to the US. The PM’s statements seem to be mealy-mouthed and vague…which is what we probably need to do at this point.

There is a difference between a forum and an authority.

The ICC as a forum may be a good thing. The ICC as an authority is another thing entirely.

A related issue is that Europe adheres to the tribunal system which effectively makes the prosecutor an agent of the court rather than a supplicant to the court as in the common law system.
 
That link is dead.

Also, by your comment, you’re supporting the arrest warrants for Sinwar and other Hamas leaders, right? Does that mean you do not support the Palestinian actions on Oct 7?
My opinion is in line with history as this is what happens when you occupy and oppress people... They revolt. What Hamas did that day is atrocious and it's the result of and the response to almost 100 years of brutal occupation and settler colonial actions (starting with the British). For example, no one questions why black slaves revolted in the US (Nate Turner's in the 1800's) or why Jews revolted against the Germans in the Warsaw ghetto or why the ANC resisted the aparthide South Africa regime...and these were all bloody events.

Now keep in mind, an interpretation is not a justification, but I also never criticize the table manners of a starving person (which are the Palestinians in this case).

Everybody seems to want to ignore the elephant in the room... which is 75+ years of documented occupation, ethnic cleansing, land theft, forced evictions, tens of massacres, aparthide, rapes (admitted by the IDF and their predissors), illegal blockades...all backed by Western powers (and some authoritarian Arab regimes in some cases).

What would anyone here do if someone shows up at your door, claims a 3,000 year old biblical reference, takes over your home and kicks you out or relegates you to live in a shed with constant harassment? Would you turn the other cheek?

Many posters here keep repeating the false claim that it's all because Palestinians and/or Hamas hates Jews, but the fact that many don't like to admit is that the Palestinians are simply paying the price of Europe’s guilty Christian conscience for prosecuting the Jews for millenia, not centuries (I mean it wasn't until the 1960's when the Vatican finally issued their declaration repudiating the idea of multigenerational Jewish guilt for the crucifixion of Jesus). In comparison, the "Golden Age" for Jews was when they lived under Islamic rule in Muslim Spain (9 & 10th century) and when Jews of Europe were suffering in the holocaust, Arab Jews of Iraq/Morocco were ministers in governments!

Another proof of Britain's complicity and hypocrisy is that a few years before the 1917 Balfour Declaration was issued (which promised jewish Zionists a national home in Palestine), the same Lord Balfour passed the "Aliens Act" aimed at restricting immigration into Britain from Jews fleeing the Russian Empire! So basically Britain was closing its doors to Jewish refugees while promising them a state on another people's land!


In all honesty, I really sympathize with European Jews who were suffering under Christian European antisemitism and if I was one of them I would've probably sought refuge in Palestine or some other country. And as a Palestinian (and Canadian) I have no issue with Jews or any other group seeking refuge in Palestine.. The issue is when it's on the basis of creating a new ethnostate in that land at the expense of the local population (ethnically cleansing the Palestinians).

Back to October 7 (which everybody treats as the start of this 100+ year colonization 🙄), as a practicing Muslim, my bar is much higher than International Law or any law. In my opinion, the rules of war and the rights of enemies at war in Islam are much more restrictive and prioritizes the sanctity of life, protection of property, prohibiting of mutilation, protection of non-combatants especially women, children, the elderly.. Etc.
Of course you'll find extremists like ISIS who will twist the exegesis and interpretations of certain verses/Hadiths to suit their objectives (interestingly the Islamophobes also use the same interpretations!).
So yes, I reject any of the above actions regardless of the perpetrator. So I condemn the taking of hostages (almost 5,000 Palestinian hostages in Israel prior to October 7 and 2.2 Million hostages in Gaza for 16 years which Israel controlled their movement in and out of the strip.. Etc), I condemn the illegal Israeli occupation since 1967, the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and before that.


Also, I'm surprised that no one on this forum (not just this thread) has shared any interviews or works by Professor John Mearsheimer. I believe his analysis of what's happening in Palestine is spot on (he also has very great insights in Ukraine and Nato).
I highly recommend watching this presentation/interview he gave last week in Australia:

 
Back to October 7 (which everybody treats as the start of this 100+ year colonization 🙄), as a practicing Muslim, my bar is much higher than International Law or any law. In my opinion, the rules of war and the rights of enemies at war in Islam are much more restrictive and prioritizes the sanctity of life, protection of property, prohibiting of mutilation, protection of non-combatants especially women, children, the elderly.. Etc.
Of course you'll find extremists like ISIS who will twist the exegesis and interpretations of certain verses/Hadiths to suit their objectives (interestingly the Islamophobes also use the same interpretations!).

Interesting that in describing your admonishment of those who contravene your personal bar that is much higher than International Law or any law (other than Sharia? 🤷🏻‍♂️), you interestingly throw ISIS in as the example of extreme behaviour…not sure of you were tracking developments in this thread, but the question was about Hamas using Gaza as a basis to break the existing ceasefire and attack Israelis in the mode that you attribute to…ISIS.

So I condemn the taking of hostages (almost 5,000 Palestinian hostages in Israel prior to October 7 and 2.2 Million hostages in Gaza for 16 years which Israel controlled their movement in and out of the strip.. Etc), I condemn the illegal Israeli occupation since 1967, the ethnic cleansing of 1948 and before that.
Help me here, so Gaza’s Palestinians were still ‘hostages’ even after Israel withdrew its forces entirely from, and handed administrative control of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority in 2005?
 
All this history is irrelevant, gaza had their chance and blew it. They’ll be under indefinite IDF occupation for the foreseeable future and will live in refugee camps being fed aid from trucks and ships. The useful idiots of the western world can keep waving their gaza flags and camp out in college campuses, it won’t change a thing.
 
It definitely makes me wonder whether Spain has thought through their position, or are just reacting.

Legitimizing terrorism and violence to achieve "state" status is not something I'd be doing if I was running Spain. Then again, my understanding of Spanish politics is barely even surface level.
 
It definitely makes me wonder whether Spain has thought through their position, or are just reacting.

Legitimizing terrorism and violence to achieve "state" status is not something I'd be doing if I was running Spain. Then again, my understanding of Spanish politics is barely even surface level.

It's complicated... ;)

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Help me here, so Gaza’s Palestinians were still ‘hostages’ even after Israel withdrew its forces entirely from, and handed administrative control of Gaza to the Palestinian Authority in 2005?

No worries, I'm here to help brother.

In 2005, Israel removed 21 illegal Jewish settlements from Gaza and "redeployed" its troops. Going on a bit of a tangent, but these illegal settlements were started over 35 year prior, they exceeded 25% of Gaza’s land area and the Jewish settler population was less than 1% of Gaza’s population (115 people per square mile for Jewish settlers vs. 9,000 people per square mile for Palestinians!). But who cares about the Palestinians, they’re just a bunch of Terrorists (“they had their chance and they blew it” as some would say).

After 2005, Israel maintained effective control of the strip deciding who gets in and out, what gets in and out, controlled the air space and enacted a naval blockade..etc. So yeah, I agree with David Cameron’s description of it as being an “Open air prison” and therefore consider the population a hostage under Israeli Occupation.

Btw, most Human Rights Organizations have concluded that Gaza remained under Occupation (even Canada officially calls it the "Occupied Palestinian Territories". Here are the HR org references:
 
Also, I'm surprised that no one on this forum (not just this thread) has shared any interviews or works by Professor John Mearsheimer. I believe his analysis of what's happening in Palestine is spot on (he also has very great insights in Ukraine and Nato).
Mearsheimer is what the Soviets used to call a useful idiot. He took a very useful theory of international affairs (structural realism) and utterly corrupted it with an extremist view point. I've met the guy before; he is amusing to listen to, because he riles up an audience with outrageous statements. But beyond that, his policy recommendations are laughably simplistic and border on conspiracy theory. "Abandon Israel, screw Ukraine, and vote for Bernie Sanders!"

But if you really want to talk Mearsheimer, he has almost no regard for morality in international affairs, and couldn't care less what the ICC thinks - read up on Offensive Realism. Everything reduces to security competition, and states do whatever is necessary to keep themselves safe. Be thankful Israel doesn't subscribe to that philosophy - pursuit of regional hegemony comes at a significant cost to your neighbors.

What would anyone here do if someone shows up at your door, claims a 3,000 year old biblical reference, takes over your home and kicks you out or relegates you to live in a shed with constant harassment? Would you turn the other cheek?

Are you suggesting that this conflict is intractable, and there is no solution unless one side totally capitulates or leaves? That narrows the solutions quite a bit, because the Israelis aren't going anywhere, and cannot be defeated by any possible coalition of their immediate neighbors. They have tried, many times, and have failed every time. If anyone ever comes close to succeeding, the Israelis will break out the nukes - nobody should have any doubt about that. A severe Israeli defeat would be the worst thing imaginable for the Middle East.

In 2005, Israel removed 21 illegal Jewish settlements from Gaza and "redeployed" its troops. Going on a bit of a tangent, but these illegal settlements were started over 35 year prior, they exceeded 25% of Gaza’s land area and the Jewish settler population was less than 1% of Gaza’s population (115 people per square mile for Jewish settlers vs. 9,000 people per square mile for Palestinians!).

Define "illegal." You cited Mearsheimer; offensive realists see no value in international law, and consider it something of a polite fiction.
 
Ben Shapiro had a column in the Sun and he denounces the ICC in no uncertain terms.

"A wretched hive of scum and villainy"

IMO these nations that recognized a gaggle of terrorists as a nation should be the first ones to house, feed and care for Palestinian refugees.

Lead by examples, A$$holes.

Adding: The US, Russia, China and others have never signed on to the ICC. Eff it and the horse it rode in on.
 
They're pretty much joining the majority of the world

How many Israeli terrorists hijacked international planes or blew them up?

How many Israeli protesters are shutting down public spaces, transportation, universities etc?

How many Israeli refugees went to neighboring countries and started civil wars, some resulting in over 150,000 fatalities?

Seems the majority of the world might just be hitting the easy button.
 
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