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GOFO Musical Chairs... LGen Frances Allen to be first female VCDS / LGen Rouleau shuffled

Edward Campbell

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I have met LGen Allen, once, I think, many years ago, when I was a director and she was a young officer asking about grad school opportunities if my memory serves. I cannot say I know her at all, but I know a lot of people, including a handful of very senior people, who do know her, well, and all I have heard is that she is very, very bright; hard-working; honest; etc, etc, etc. (BTW, she didn't go to physics/engineering grad school.)
 

Weinie

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I think in today's CAF, having any (not necessarily criminal) past misconduct will hurt your credibility as a military leader, moreso than even 5 years ago.
And would you have said that two months ago? Really?
 

Walt

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Why don't we stay on topic??? Personal attacks are unwarranted. We all have opinions and expressions; however, blatant criticism on this forum is not welcomed. Please consider what you are (trying) to convey before you post a reply/message.
 

brihard

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Is he objectively wrong? Seems that the standards against which senior military leaders are measured have evolved. Certain past misbehaviour or indiscretion is weighted more heavily than it used to be. The times have changed.

You don’t like his opinion; got it. But with CAF senior leadership representing the institution to the GoC and to the public, it doesn’t seem to me that he’s off track.
 

Weinie

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Is he objectively wrong? Seems that the standards against which senior military leaders are measured have evolved. Certain past misbehaviour or indiscretion is weighted more heavily than it used to be. The times have changed.

You don’t like his opinion; got it. But with CAF senior leadership representing the institution to the GoC and to the public, it doesn’t seem to me that he’s off track.
And how long is off track?
 

brihard

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And how long is off track?
Your question doesn’t make sense, nor does the tone you’re taking with Max.

He opined that not having skeletons in your closet is an aspect of credibility that has increased in importance. Objectively, looking at what has happened to several senior military leaders, and at how many of the troops have responded to this Op Honour debacle, his position seems to be well founded. Simply dismissing him with “#WOKE” is not an argument.
 

Weinie

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Your question doesn’t make sense, nor does the tone you’re taking with Max.

He opined that not having skeletons in your closet is an aspect of credibility that has increased in importance. Objectively, looking at what has happened to several senior military leaders, and at how many of the troops have responded to this Op Honour debacle, his position seems to be well founded. Simply dismissing him with “#WOKE” is not an argument.

#woke is my comment when someone suddenly postulates that they abhor how senior leadership has failed the military. Max has never ever posted about this before.

And it is really easy to pile on, given the current circumstances. You don't have a fucking clue, other than what you have read in the media, of the veracity of anything that has been said.

You are a cop. Innocent until proven guilty?
 

SupersonicMax

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#woke is my comment when someone suddenly postulates that they abhor how senior leadership has failed the military. Max has never ever posted about this before.

Except I have never said that senior leadership has failed. All I said is that the conditions defining what credible means change over time.

If you do not agree that a past free of misconduct is included in today's definition of credible, you can take it up to the highest levels of the institution.
 

Weinie

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Except I have never said that senior leadership has failed. All I said is that the conditions defining what credible means change over time.

If you do not agree that a past free of misconduct is included in today's definition of credible, you can take it up to the highest levels of the institution.
Max......seriously.

Do you stand for anything?

OMFG
 
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MJP

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#woke is my comment when someone suddenly postulates that they abhor how senior leadership has failed the military. Max has never ever posted about this before.

And it is really easy to pile on, given the current circumstances. You don't have a fucking clue, other than what you have read in the media, of the veracity of anything that has been said.

You are a cop. Innocent until proven guilty.
We can have opinions even dissenting ones and have conversation. SSM has articulate a position (in fact he has been great in recent topics doing so, where some others have chosen to stray outside of polite conversation), one that is very poignant in highlighting that values and conditions change. This isn't some court of law where we have to reserve rendering an opinion until all the facts are out. FWIW I am glad that there is more scrutiny as there is a real sense that there is very much a "rules for thee not me" being applied to senior officers for things more junior soldiers would hang for. Real or not the perception that the schism is there exists.

The next few weeks are going to be very painful for us as an institution but I rather we rip the band aid off and get on with it.


Max......seriously.

Do you stand for anything?

OMFG

You are just trolling, go to twitter if you can't hold a conversation.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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Except I have never said that senior leadership has failed. All I said is that the conditions defining what credible means change over time.

If you do not agree that a past free of misconduct is included in today's definition of credible, you can take it up to the highest levels of the institution.
I would say the problem is NOT the past free of misconduct.....I have been "misconducted" criminally once and "misconducted"several times at my various jobs, but what I see is the real issue is how the machine allowed this to not be corrected via whatever 'misconduct' was required years and years ago. I always learned and changed from my slaps, its apparent that so many of these folks appear to never have been slapped for things, and now the powerless people are speaking up all at once.
Not sure if I articulated that well enough, but in my mind the problem is not so much about those being investigated now, but those who knew yet said and did nothing over the last couple decades.
 

SupersonicMax

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I would say the problem is NOT the past free of misconduct.....I have been "misconducted" criminally once and "misconducted"several times at my various jobs, but what I see is the real issue is how the machine allowed this to not be corrected via whatever 'misconduct' was required years and years ago. I always learned and changed from my slaps, its apparent that so many of these folks appear to never have been slapped for things, and now the powerless people are speaking up all at once.
Not sure if I articulated that well enough, but in my mind the problem is not so much about those being investigated now, but those who knew yet said and did nothing over the last couple decades.

That is true Bruce. I am wondering, however, how the political crowd and, more importantly, the CAF would react, today, to having a CDS that was charged and found guilty of misconduct (and rehabilitated) in the past. There is one side that tells me that if someone paid the price, we should move on and another side that tells me that it wouldn't project the right message.
 

Weinie

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I think it's time for you to take a break bud. I am sorry I upset so this much.
Max,

I will break away from this
We can have opinions even dissenting ones and have conversation. SSM has articulate a position (in fact he has been great in recent topics doing so, where some others have chosen to stray outside of polite conversation), one that is very poignant in highlighting that values and conditions change. This isn't some court of law where we have to reserve rendering an opinion until all the facts are out. FWIW I am glad that there is more scrutiny as there is a real sense that there is very much a "rules for thee not me" being applied to senior officers for things more junior soldiers would hang for. Real or not the perception that the schism is there exists.

The next few weeks are going to be very painful for us as an institution but I rather we rip the band aid off and get on with it.




You are just trolling, go to twitter if you can't hold a conversation.
Thanks for your post.
 

MJP

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I would say the problem is NOT the past free of misconduct.....I have been "misconducted" criminally once and "misconducted"several times at my various jobs, but what I see is the real issue is how the machine allowed this to not be corrected via whatever 'misconduct' was required years and years ago. I always learned and changed from my slaps, its apparent that so many of these folks appear to never have been slapped for things, and now the powerless people are speaking up all at once.
Not sure if I articulated that well enough, but in my mind the problem is not so much about those being investigated now, but those who knew yet said and did nothing over the last couple decades.
I think that is the key is people know that they will be heard now, having the courage to speak up is hard even for soldiers as our culture really discourages it. This is not some internal CAF problem, fear of reporting is a well known phenomenon throughout many industries and society writ large. If a victim feels like they won't be listened too or has no power they are reluctant to report. Even the trauma of reporting/testifying is stumbling block. The current environment is probably one of the most open and conducive to reporting likely since we went down the Op H route

I have no doubt that this will be used to grind some imaginary axes....
 

brihard

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#woke is my comment when someone suddenly postulates that they abhor how senior leadership has failed the military. Max has never ever posted about this before.

And it is really easy to pile on, given the current circumstances. You don't have a fucking clue, other than what you have read in the media, of the veracity of anything that has been said.

You are a cop. Innocent until proven guilty?

Indeed, I have no firsthand knowledge, and I do believe in innocent until proven guilty. Though we aren’t even talking criminal here. You’ll note I’ve not opined on the likelihood that any individual or specific set of allegations against any particular officer is true. I am speaking, and I believe Max is speaking, to the broader crisis of confidence that has emerged in CAF senior leadership because of this ugly and unfortunate series of reports and allegations.

I am unable to form my own objective set of beliefs from firsthand or investigative knowledge. With that said, I’m not solely limited to what is said in the media. I also have the informed opinions of those more in the know who I do consider credible, yourself included. In the recent thread alleging issues with COMD MILPERSCOM:
Line up. This is one of the allegations that is going to have legs

I know who you are and what you do, so when you say something like that it carries enough weight that, if corroborated by other people that I trust, it’s enough for me to agree there’s maybe smoke and to watch with interest. Nowhere will you see me saying who set the fire, or even if there’s a flame. Of course this is not the first case that has ‘grown legs’ nor is it the second. The number of leaves-on-shoulders implicated in potentially credible allegations of this sort of stuff is enough to cause concern.

As to Max never having had much to say on the subject, the same can be said for many people. I’ve never seen this many key senior officers facing this kind of scrutiny or controversy before in the ‘Op Honour’ bucket. This is a pretty novel set of circumstances and of course raises concern. To have such concerns is fair. To suggest that expectations have changed over time is fair. To suggest that what defines credibility in 2021 differs from in 1995 is fair.

Your reply to me is remarkably hostile for what I though was a civil exchange between a couple of professionals on an ugly but important topic. While I was only ever a Sgt, and a reservist at that, my years in that uniform and as a very minor and utterly inconsequential leader in the profession of arms have instilled in me some pride, and some vested interest in how the institution fares. I have immediate family who are or were senior enough officers too. I care about how they might be seen.

I have no interest in a pointless squabble. So- respectfully, perhaps take a tactical pause here and decide if coming at me like that is warranted. I personally don’t think it was, and I’m a bit surprised and disappointed. But that’s ultimately up to you.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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I wasn't talking about the victims speaking up...I'm sure many tried and were shut down It's the ones who knew who need to go even more in my mind.....like the MND must go without question. The fact he isn't sitting as an independent getting kicked out next election is a pox on every Canadian.
 

MJP

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I wasn't talking about the victims speaking up...I'm sure many tried and were shut down It's the ones who knew who need to go even more in my mind.....like the MND must go without question. The fact he isn't sitting as an independent getting kicked out next election is a pox on every Canadian.
Ahh ok I understand now and FWIW the stench on this current situation from that particular area and higher leaves we with less confidence than I had before which I didn't think was possible
 
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