GBAD - The return of 'FOBS'

[quadrapiper]

I don’t know how many recruits you netting with the call to defend the Winnipeg Airport. Contrary to your assertion, the time we actually did have a surplus in recruits was when we were engaged in combat operations in recruiting - young people want adventure not to be used as security guards. Now for my next point.

Tangentially, haven't seen much being made of Latvia in recruiting material. "Hey 20-somethings, want to do Army Stuff™, GTFO of Nanaimo, and get to go to Europe while you're doing it? If yes, then (trades) are for you!"

As far as BDF but for civil sites... it's probably something that should be sandtabled in cooperation with everyone else likely to be involved once in a while, along with aid to the civil power, disaster response, etc. Not sure that, given ~40 training nights and ~10 weekends, that it's the highest training priority, and doesn't seem like a particularly compelling role to highlight for recruiting or retention.

Can't see, absent a real threat, airports being keen on air defence sites all over the place, especially if those sites are being used for training.

 

[markppcli]

Except in this case the threat was from terrorist attacks, which various regiments were tasked to deter. Heathrow's been through similar incidents since the 70s.

We don't have a domestic threat to airports like that, and likely never will.

Troops deployed at Heathrow against terror threat

More than 400 soldiers were drafted in to provide extra security at Heathrow Airport and a number of other unspecified sites across London today to combat a new terrorist threat.

www.independent.co.uk

Woah woah woah - are you suggesting that 1970-1990sUK had a different security reality than 2020s Canada ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Woah woah woah - are you suggesting that 1970-1990sUK had a different security reality than 2020s Canada ?

Based on the number of 1000+lb IEDs detonated in each country by sophisticated international terrorist organizations I'll go way out on a limb here and say 'yes'

 

[Kirkhill]

Give me some indication that Canada is preparing for any security threats.

Note that the Government's priorities have not changed since 1945

Canada
North America
The North Atlantic
The World.

The Air Force got the memo a while ago.

 

[GR66]

If one gun can be acquired for dual purposes then what happens if.....

The RRCA equips all militia regiments with 6 gun 155mm Air Defence Batteries (Archer type self loaders on wheels). The same batteries can also supply General Support.

Similar rationale for infantry and cavalry to acquire 30/35mm cannons for local air defence - but the calibre is sufficiently well developed with a large variety of fuses and warheads to supply counters to personnel and vehicles of all sorts.

Beating the National Defence drum again - trying to sell the need for good equipment to Canadians that perceive no threat.

I believe that the UAS threat is not only real but can be demonstrated to the lads at the lake as real.

Disruptions to air travel are a civilian concern.

I'm reading the article on the hyper-velocity rounds being tested for the 155mm cannon very differently than you.

The service is pursuing such a capability as a potential munition for eliminating cheaper targets, rather than using high-end missiles for the same mission, Rasch told Defense News at the Space and Missile Defense Symposium.

Hypervelocity projectiles are “an order of magnitude cheaper than its equivalent missile,” Rasch said, “but can go really fast to close on the target.”

You seem to be making the assumption from your characterization of an Archer-type system potentially being a "155mm Air Defence Battery" that these hyper-velocity cannon rounds are intended for shooting down incoming missiles/drones/aircraft, etc.

I don't read it that way at all. To me they are simply testing a long range, very fast, indirect fire cannon round that can hit distant targets on the ground much cheaper and faster than a missile. The guidance systems they are talking about are to allow precision strike - possibly even against moving ground targets - not for taking out aerial targets.

 

[markppcli]

Give me some indication that Canada is preparing for any security threats.

Note that the Government's priorities have not changed since 1945

Canada
North America
The North Atlantic
The World.

The Air Force got the memo a while ago.

The Royal Canadian Air Force? At the direction of the Canadian government, elected by the people of Canada would seem to me to be an indication of Canada’s policy. That’s why we participate in NORAD.

Now if you excuse me me and the other barooom layabouts have to get ready to swan around Latvia.

 

[FJAG]

I'm reading the article on the hyper-velocity rounds being tested for the 155mm cannon very differently than you.

You seem to be making the assumption from your characterization of an Archer-type system potentially being a "155mm Air Defence Battery" that these hyper-velocity cannon rounds are intended for shooting down incoming missiles/drones/aircraft, etc.

I don't read it that way at all. To me they are simply testing a long range, very fast, indirect fire cannon round that can hit distant targets on the ground much cheaper and faster than a missile. The guidance systems they are talking about are to allow precision strike - possibly even against moving ground targets - not for taking out aerial targets.

I'm with you. My understanding of hypervelocity (HV) rounds is also quite different.

Time of flight isn't the key factor in a HV round. What is the issue is the terminal effect. A round arriving at a target at HV speed effectively plasticizes or liquifies the metal of both the round and the target providing tremendous penetrating power.

The way that the round achieves HV is by way of its narrow form and the fact that it's a sub calibre projectile similar to a discarding sabot or long rod penetrator. What makes the 155 particulalry attractive for HV is that it has a strong chamber designed to hurl much heavier projectiles thus having the ability to hurl a light sub calibre much further and faster. The M1299 had a 155L58 experimental barrel. That comes with a significantly stronger chamber than the current L39 or RM's L52. All the HV tests were done on the L58. It needs to be seen if the same performance can be duplicated on the L52 without major changes to either the chamber or the round.

Long story short, you do not need an HV projectile to knock down an aircraft. Aircraft are notoriously and relatively thin skinned and fragile. A proximity round that breaks into a web of multiple disruptive particles is very effective against most aircraft and even incoming missiles. That's not to say that an HV round may not be of value when used in a system that is already designed for and tied into an AD system, like most guns on ships are. Most field artillery is not that and again, there is a practicality involved in integrating AD functionality into a field artillery system. For example most of the on-board ammo storage of systems that could be adapted to AD, like Archer or an RCM turret for example, is limited. Then there's all the hardware and systems needed to rapidly slew field guns onto targets and engage while deployed in fd support roles. There are different principles for siting AD and Fd systems. It's not impossible but ... challenging.

I've said this before in about six different ways. AD is important. It's critical. It's not something that should be a secondary duty of some other system. It requires a dedicated organization with a high calibre command and control system and a variety of sensors and effectors.

 

[KevinB]

Let’s be honest. Until the CA reworks the PRes and vastly expanded AD acquisitions, it’s not a realistic concept to have AD units in the PRes, or C-UAS to that matter.

Canada doesn’t really need a dedicated continental defense Army - the RCN and the RCAF (and let’s be honest the USN and USAF) have that role so the Armies (and USMC down here) can be an expeditionary force so no one comes to North American shores to need to be sunk/shot down by the USN, USAF, RCAF and RCN in any sort of numbers.

Canada’s Army needs to be able to demonstrate sovereignty operations, but primarily the focus needs to be going to visit someone before they could visit you.