FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Colin Parkinson]

You do realize that the 415 Series of Aircraft is generally used as a water bomber.

415 Series aircraft.

The article does state this fact, also Malaysia used to use the Albatross in the same coastal surveillance role, up till 1991 I think. Over the years they have used quite a few Canadian aircraft.

 

[observor 69]

When 413 Sqn in Summerside received Buffalo aircraft to replace the Albatross the general concensus was we had just got screwed by Ottawa, much less range, much less carry weight. Also at that time the nav package was bare bones.

http://www.rcaf.com/aircraft/patrol/albatross/index.php?name=Albatross

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/site/equip/historical/albatrosslst_e.asp

 

[geo]

Change is always scary..... better the beast you know than the one you don't

 

[MarkOttawa]

Surely the problem with the 415 is that it would not be an effective tactical transport (no ramp to start) to supplement the Jercs within Canada (and maybe the hemisphere), when we get them--as our C-130Es do for the Hs.  Plus its speed would be inadequate for many SAR missions out of Trenton and  Winnipeg:

424 Squadron
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/8w-8e/sqns-escs/page-eng.asp?id=664

435 Squadron
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/17w-17e/sqns-escs/page-eng.asp?id=412

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Don2wing]

    Mark,
            The 415MP as with the Canso and Albatross are/were purely FWSAR aircraft as the RCAF had general duty tactical aircraft. The current problem is we are trying to have fewer aircraft doing more jobs. Spec'd for the job, upgraded engines and all, the 415MP could be a candidate for the FWSAR while the new built Buffalo or Spartan could do tactical transport duties.

 

[aesop081]

    Mark,
             The 415MP as with the Canso and Albatross are/were purely FWSAR aircraft as the RCAF had general duty tactical aircraft. The current problem is we are trying to have fewer aircraft doing more jobs. Spec'd for the job, upgraded engines and all, the 415MP could be a candidate for the FWSAR while the new built Buffalo or Spartan could do tactical transport duties.

Does the 415 meet the required specs for FWSAR ?

I'll give you 2 guesses but you're only going to need one.....

 

[SeaKingTacco]

How is an unpressurized 415MP that is even slower than a Buffalo possibly going to get over or around the the Rockies in bad weather? 

Look space cadets and other aviation expert "wannabees"- statements of requirements for CF aircraft are written based on the role they must fulfill- not where they are built.

If a Canadian built aircraft can meet the Statement of Requirements- great.  If not- don't go b@&$)ing to your MP, Cabinet Minister or the media.  Buying substandard crap wastes money and costs lives.

 

[observor 69]

Change is always scary..... better the beast you know than the one you don't

If you are implying that we were scared of changing from the Albatross to the Buff you are right. While the capabilities of the Buff made it a good potential west coast  FWSAR a/c on the East coast it was an a/c with, by our Albatross standards, short range and a greatly reduced all up weight.
NDHQ had to replace the Albatross due to a number of factors so we got an aircraft that arrived from St.Hubert still in it's army green.
An examination of the Buff flight manual makes it pretty clear that the aircraft designer didn't have east coast FWSAR in mind. 

And did I mention it had came with a real basic nav package, as one of our navs used to say in reference to a search over the Atlantic "Jeez I hope we don't find anyone, I won't be able to tell anyone where we are." 

 

[Don2wing]

  Here is the latest on the Buffalo DHC-5NG verus the C-27J from the Viking website: 

http://www.vikingair.com/uploadedFiles/News/News_Item/DHC-5NG%20versus%20C27J%20January%202009.pdf

 

 

[geo]

Whereas the engine, propeller and flight deck equipment for the C-27J has been based on the military
equipment of the C-130J, the DHC-5NG will be equipped with the latest technology commercial
equipment. The upgrade, which is complete from flight deck through all systems, is centered on the
engine/propeller combination from the DHC-8Q400. DND and the Canadian taxpayers will benefit
greatly from using commercial equipment in terms of reliability, supportability and cost of operations.
The Pratt & Whitney Canada PW-150 engine will, as an example, start off with more than 10,000
flying hours between overhauls.

Problem I see here is that the C-27J is flying NOW, it is in production NOW while the DBC-5NG is not either of the above.  How long are we as a FWSAR user to wait before a replacement aircraft comes on line.  These old buffalos ain't what they used to be.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I noticed that Viking "conveniently" left out the fact that the "Buff NG" is unpressurized...no discussion of service ceiling is made....there is no comparison in the available payload between the two (the C-27 is way ahead).

I have no dog in this fight, but really, there is no comparison between the two airplanes.  They are designed to do different things.

 

[geo]

From what I can see... Viking is hoping for a DND contract to finance the design & build of their production line.  Without it, am not certain they will ever start producing a new / old Buff

 

[Don2wing]

  Speaking out in the C-27J favour, I am glad that the Italian government choose to develop the G.222, paying for the test aircraft and then ordered 46 a/c when no other country would. Then buying more G.222 that were upgraded to a new standard called the C-27J. The Italians have a military industrial strategy from planes, vehicles to naval ships. They build to high standards and can compete with other countries. Now we can reap the rewards.

  As you might have guessed by reading the papers we are in a recession and quite frankly I hope it becomes a economic depression. It will drive home the point that we should help ourselves first and not creat madework projects around the world. 
 
 

 

[aesop081]

  As you might have guessed by reading the papers we are in a recession and quite frankly I hope it becomes a economic depression.

what ?


and this has to do with the 415MP and Viking air how ?

 

[geo]

Don2wing...
Don't forget that the USAF bought a bunch of the G222/C27s - and parked em as impractical to fly.... that should tell ya something.  If it wasn't for Lockheed Martin, the C27 would still be the same old G222 that the US considered impractical to fly/maintain.... not much of a strategy for that italian military industrial types.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Don2wing how about you listen to those that actually know a thing or two about what we need for a FWSAR Airframe.

 

[Zoomie]

Quite the pretty PDF that Viking has produced.  I would be interested to know where they got their stats for this DHC-5NG from?  For a plane that doesn't exist yet, no prototype, not ever an engineers wet-dream - pretty bold stats.

Interesting that they have Field Aviation as one of their supporters - wonder if they know that Field has declared bankruptcy and closing its doors in March '09.

KFC is also another winner - they are the cheapest solution by far, with little to no follow-through in their product - just what we need.

 

[Don2wing]

Geo,
      Two points,
                        First - The Canadian government including the military gets its funding through taxes from Canadian companies and individuals. If the taxes collected decrease due to recession and /or depression, DND will not be funded at present levels as all government departments. This recession is becoming nastier by the day. Read the business papers about Canada and the rest of the world. The US, Europe, and Asia are suffering and indicators are getting worse. The Americans and Brits are going to continue to nationalize more banks.
                     
                       Secondly,
                                  Italy has Italian owned aircraft and helicopter manufacturers, to Iveco's military vehicles and the Italian built aircraft carrier Cavour. Canada cannot even build coast guard boats or JSS (  Our big honking boats). Our LAVs are built by GD who could move the factory to its home country. When we look at Germany, France or Sweden they all support home grown manufacturers who build to standards laid out in the public domain and not SORs spec'd to foreign products.  If we want to be a branch plant country then this is what we get. That is going to the mall and buying what ever is on the shelf or the sale bin.

 

[aesop081]

                                  Italy has Italian owned aircraft and helicopter manufacturers,

So does Canada but unfortunately, none of them build what we require.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Don-

What has any of that got to do with FWSAR?  Are you saying that, by policy, the CF should only buy Canadian made gear, regardless of it's suitability for the task at hand?  I've got an idea- why don't Canadian manufacturers build stuff we might want, based on our SORs, rather than taking out newspaper ads, calling MPs and generally making us out to be the bad guy when we don't want to fork over billions from our already limited and shrinking capital budget for stuff that won't work the way we want it too?

I got to ask- did you know Field Aviation has gone bankrupt?  Did you know that the Buff NG is only a paper airplane that does not yet exist?  How likely is it that this airplane will ever exist?

And... don't idealize Italian kit.  That's all that I will say on that.