FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[geo]

.... also - the expression "reinvent the wheel" comes to mind.

When you get down to it, a Typhoon, a Corsair or a Skyraider would make a good weapons platform for CAS... Low tech solutions to today's problems.

 

[karl28]

http://www.vikingair.com/uploadedFiles/to_brochure.pdf

      Hey every one was just wondering what ever happened to the SAR fixed wing replacement program ?  I found this link in regards to the new Twin Otter production line was wondering if the new Otter would be  a good replacement for the old ones  ? 
        Also to the Mods I couldn't find a Topic on this but if there is one please move thanks

 

[geo]

Karl... if you do a search for "viking air" you will get a hit.... on this thread

Look around post 100.... has been discussed & opinions expressed.

 

[MarkOttawa]

karl28: From July but I think still relevant:

Fixed-wing SAR replacement: "we’re putting proposals in front of the government to that end"
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/07/fixed-wing-sar-replacement-were-putting.html

From October:
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/10/21/4594133-cp.html

In a recent interview with The Canadian Press, the new Chief of Air Staff, Lt.-Gen Angus Watt, said purchasing new fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft is among his six top priorities, but couldn't say when the project will move forward.

Since the replacement program was first announced there have been allegations within the defence industry that the competition was being narrowed so that only one aircraft was seen to be able to meet the Defence Department's requirements.

The air force has denied the claims and Finnemore said a statement of requirements is still being drafted by military planners.

In the meantime, the first step in the Buffalo refurbishment program, which has been approved and funded, is to update the electronics, including emergency locator beacons and cockpit voice recorders.

Replacing the engines and propellers on each of the antiquated aircraft would be the biggest job by far, but Finnemore said that aspect of the upgrade has not been given the green light.

Some context:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/01/everyones-procurement-expert.html
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/01/fixed-wing-sar-replacement-single.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[karl28]

geo  Hey man thanks for that information .  I should of did a better search,  I went through  the topics didn't notice this one .


MarkOttawa 

  Thanks for the link will be interesting read

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Has there been a military procurement in the west involving aircraft, that hasn't involved lawsuits, potential corruption and government flip flop? The only one I can think of recently is the Canadian C-17 buy.

 

[geo]

the sole sourcing of C17s DID raise suggestions of corruption or poor management practices... even if Boeing is the only possible provider of this size aircraft.....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

the sole sourcing of C17s DID raise suggestions of corruption or poor management practices... even if Boeing is the only possible provider of this size aircraft.....

Canadian definition of poor management in aircraft procurement= Not enough money spent in traditional Liberal riding's....... ;D

Of course O'Connor was accused of being a Lobbyist for the Industrial - military complex, neglecting to mention he worked on behalf of Airbus(t)  :

 

[geo]

I would venture to say that the Conservatives would have howled just as hard if the Lib gov't had single sourced & bypassed the procurement process... It's the nature of the beast IMHO

 

[MarkOttawa]

geo: No "venture" needed:

DEFENCE POLICY: CONSERVATIVES THE NEW LIBERALS (internal link no longer exists)
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/005351.html

National Defence critic Gordon O'Connor (Brig. Gen. ret'd) blows it, in my opinion.

O'Connor said he strongly supports streamlined military procurement practices, but he says the Liberal method will hurt competition and favour certain products - Lockheed Martin's C-130J transport plane, for example.

Prime Minister Paul Martin has said getting what the military needs takes precedence over regional and industrial benefits.

O'Connor said he also supports what he calls the "sensible" Liberal concept of setting out requirements based on performance needs. But he said regional and industrial benefits are a must in any military procurement.

It's the regional and industrial benefits that the Liberals have previously always pushed, for votes, that have in large measure made the equipment acquisition process so overly slow and costly.

And if O'Connor can suggest a better plane than the C-130J for the tactical transport, why does he not do so?

Plus ça...funny old world.  And how soon we forget.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[geo]

heh.... something about the king's new clothes

 

[Bandit1]

Well, we'd better get them soon, because apparantly the Liberals want to use them to demonstrate our sovereignty in the North...please, try not to laugh to hard and fall of your chair like I did when I read this...

Dion suggests ways to assert Canadian arctic sovereignty
The Canadian Press

December 8, 2007 at 7:52 PM EST

Yellowknife — Federal Liberal Stephane Dion says a move as simple as stationing a handful of search and rescue planes could help stake out sovereignty over Canada's North.

Mr. Dion promised a Liberal government would station two planes in Yellowknife and two in Iqaluit, in order to foster both development and a sense that Canada is caring for people who live in the North.

“This is something important to do for the people here, to have economic opportunity but also to, again, establish our sovereignty, to show that when it's time to rescue life in the north, Canadians are well-equipped.”

At the Yellowknife airport before departing for Cambridge Bay, Nunavut, Mr. Dion also said he would make another move to show a Liberal government would take care of the north.

“We'll re-establish the ambassador for the Arctic, something the Conservatives have shamefully cut,” he said.

He plans to highlight his experiences from his three-day swing through the Arctic when meeting with international leaders about climate change in Bali, Indonesia.

He says key issues he'll raise will be the massive infrastructure woes that will be caused by melting permafrost and the potential for species to become extinct as temperatures rise.

“All these buildings, these roads have been created with the certainty the permafrost would stay frozen, and now, because of climate change, it's changing, and it will create a huge infrastructure cost in the North,” he said.

In an earlier stop in Whitehorse, Mr. Dion pledged to create a centre to study how the North can adapt to climate change, and added similar facilities may make sense in Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071208.wdion_north1208/BNStory/National/

Bandit

 

[Zoomie]

Glad you posted it here Bandit - I never stray into the politics section.

 

[MarkOttawa]

M. Dion is ignoring the fact that no-one (other the Danes at Hans Island) is challenging our sovereignty over land in the Arctic.  It's the waterways and some parts of the sea that are at issue and SAR aircraft are not terribly relevant to those questions.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

Alenia's C-27J Wins Romanian Contract

fter a competition that saw the Alenia Aeronautica's C-27J Spartan/ "Baby Herc" face off against EADS-CASA's C-295M, Alenia Aeronautica announced on Dec 1/06 [PDF] that Romania's Ministry of Defence has began exclusive final negotiations for 7 light tactical transports, plus support et. al. The planes will also be equipped with a complete (but as-yet unspecified) self-protection system to allow them to carry out missions in high-threat areas. The Romanian contract was expected to be signed by the end of 2006.

The contract took much longer, and was interspersed with some drama along the way, but a contract has finally been signed…

n February 2007, the Romanian Defense Ministry stopped negotiations with Alenia Aeronautica, after Romania's National Authority Controlling the Public Procurement upheld EADS' complaint that it was the lowest price bidder, "which was the parameter defined by the tender procedure as the criteria for decision." It did not dispute the ministry's technical parameters and evaluations, however, which had given the C-27J an edge. Alenia appealed the NCSC decision, and the matter was referred to a Romanian court.

Defense News reported that even if the appeal failed, a Defense Ministry spokesman had said that Romania's Ministry of Defense would simply relaunch its competition. Presumably with a revised set of conditions that gave its technical criteria more weight.

n the end, that wasn't necessary. The Court of Appeals overturned the ruling, but "it rejected the request made by Alenia to make it mandatory for Romanian authorities to seal the contract with the Italian company." The contract thus remained uncertain, as the C-27J's selection remained controversial in Romania. ...

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/alenias-c27j-staked-to-lead-role-in-negotiations-for-romanian-contract-02847/

 

[Blackadder1916]

Antique search planes to be replaced in 2014; critics call them Tories' Sea Kings
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/04/13/pf-5275276.html

By Murray Brewster, THE CANADIAN PRESS  April 13, 2008

OTTAWA - Canada's geriatric fleet of fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft, originally ordered replaced five years ago, will have to keep flying until at least 2014 and possibly longer, federal budget documents have revealed.

The air force has been struggling to keep its 40-year-old, twin-engine Buffalos in the air along the West Coast, where their slow speed makes them ideal for searching mountain ranges.

Opposition critics say the unacceptable delay in replacing the six aircraft - which face frequent downtime because of a looming shortage of spare parts - makes a mockery the Conservative government's self-titled Canada First defence strategy.

"It's laughable," said New Democrat defence critic Dawn Black, a British Columbia MP.

"Search and rescue is becoming the orphan-child of the Canadian Forces in terms of equipment."

The air force relies on both the Buffalo and an aging flight of C-130 Hercules cargo planes for fixed-wing search. In addition, there 14 CH-149 Cormorant helicopters, which have had a spotty in-service record because of a shortage of spare parts.

Black said the Conservatives' procrastination over the Buffalo has started to look a lot like the former Liberal government's decade-long puttering replacement program for Sea King helicopters.

"They are just so preoccupied with the war in Afghanistan that nothing else really registers," said Black, whose party was adamantly opposed to the extension of the Afghan mission.

The Defence Department's report on plans and priorities for the new budget year says the Buffalo replacement project will only proceed into its definition phase this year, with the delivery of new aircraft not expected until 2014-15.

The new chief of air staff, Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, said at his swearing-in ceremony last summer that a proposal for new fixed-wing search planes would go before the federal cabinet "soon."

The air force had done contingency planning to keep the Buffalos flying until 2015, but officials said last fall that no firm decision had been made because there was concern about a dwindling supply of spare parts.

In order to carry on until then, air staff planners said they would have to purchase retired Brazilian air force Buffalos to cannibalize.

The Conservatives promised in the last election campaign to replace the Buffalos with 15 brand-new aircraft. The pledge came one year after the former Liberal government announced it was spending $3 billion to buy new search planes - a promise that couldn't be fulfilled before the defeat of Paul Martin's government.

One of the aircraft-makers that has been waiting five years for the replacement project to get under way says Canadian aerospace companies could end up being hurt by a prolonged delay.

Aleina North America, a subsidiary of Italian-owned Alenia Aeronautica, has been trying to convince the Defence Department to look at its C-27J Spartan.

The company recently won a major contract with the Pentagon, and president Giuseppe Giordo said they have been talking with potential Canadian part suppliers.

"The program has already been delayed so long," Giordo said in an interview.

"The Canadian government has obviously decided to proceed with more pressing programs, related to Afghanistan, such as the C-17 (heavy-lift planes) and the C-130-J (medium-lift aircraft). But clearly one day or another the Canadian government will have to take care of its domestic needs."

Giordo said the current fleet is old and he wonders whether it can hold on until 2014-15.

The air force is proceeding with a life-extension program on the Buffalos that is expected to cost around $75 million. The work will focus on replacing the engines, strengthening the airframes and replacing the landing gear.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Mod edited to comply with Milnet.ca policy.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[geo]

Viking Air purchased all the DeHaviland designs some years ago... Beaver, Twin Otter & Buffalo

Problem with anyone tooling up for a new fleet of Buffalos is that, we'd probably be the only client for the aricraft - making the unit cost of each plane a very expensive proposition...  Might be wrong but I think everyone else has phased out their Buffs - for lack of spare parts...

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Not sure on that geo but according to Wikipedia,

Operators
Abu Dhabi
Brazil
Cameroon
Canada Canadian Forces
Chile: Chilean Air Force (Retired)
Democratic Republic of the Congo (previously  Zaire)
Ecuador
Egypt
Indonesia
Kenya
Mauritania
Mexico: Mexican Navy
Oman: Oman Police Air Wing
Peru Peruvian Air Force (Retired)
Sudan
Tanzania
Togo
United States: United States Army
Zambia

 

[geo]

Many have had them but few continue to use em.

You'll find that the US flew the DHC4 Caribou VS the DHC5 Buffalo...

http://argent.canoe.com/infos/canada/archives/2007/10/20071022-072854.html
Le Brésil et le Canada sont les deux seuls pays au monde à encore utiliser ce modèle particulier de CC-115. Il a été impossible de rejoindre les dirigeants du ministère de la Défense nationale responsables du matériel afin de savoir s'ils avaient tenté d'exploiter l'option brésilienne pour obtenir des pièces de rechange.

Let,s face it, these birds are long in the tooth and it's only because of our stubborn procrastination that we are continuing to fly the Buffs.  Other countries with a smaller industrial capacity will prolly have had to push em off to the scrap yard a long time ago...