Forcing me to swtich from Navy Int op to army int op.

[holmessean]

Well my component transfer (from reserve infantry) went through and I got my offer letter, Int Op Sea was stated on the letter. I then received my posting message which also stated Int Op sea. My offer letter also stated along with my posting message that I would be posted to 2 EW Sqn. Now I had assumed it would be my posting only for duration of my course and then I would be posted to a coast.Due to the fact that the int op courses are no longer run purple I wouldn't be able to work at 2 EW sqn as an int op. So my first day in Kingston I receive word that my career manager and the RSM of my unit decided to swtich me to army int. I was told due to service requirements that they can swtich me to Army int.  Is this true? Is there anything I can do to try and keep myself Navy Int? Would I not have to sign a new contract stating I'm army int, that I could in tunr choose not to sign?  Any help or advice appreciated.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

So let me get this right...Int Ops are no longer purple trades but are now element specific?

 

[PMedMoe]

So let me get this right.....you had to post this twice?

 

[George Wallace]

So let me get this right.....you had to post this twice?

Not any more.    ;D

 

[George Wallace]

................. So my first day in Kingston I receive word that my career manager and the RSM of my unit decided to swtich me to army int. I was told due to service requirements that they can swtich me to Army int.  Is this true? Is there anything I can do to try and keep myself Navy Int? Would I not have to sign a new contract stating I'm army int, that I could in tunr choose not to sign?  Any help or advice appreciated.

Yes the Career Manager can.  You will go where they have a "requirement" for you to go, just as in past years others went Air Force.  The Career Manager, the Branch Chief and Branch Commandant will decide where they need people and send them there.  You can make a request, just like your three choices of Postings, and if you are lucky you get one, but in the end, it is where the CF needs you the most, not what you want.

If you wanted to not sign accepting your Terms of Service, you should have done so when they offered you the CT.  Now that you have accepted, it is a little late.

 

[ltmaverick25]

Based on what he posted the terms of service clearly said Int Op Sea, which is exactly what he wanted.  Why then would he not sign it?

I personally think what they are doing is BS.  Try to fight it.  If Int Op sea is what you want then do a bit of kicking and screaming and see what happens.  The worst they can say is no.  This issue here is a great example of why we have trouble retaining people.

 

[George Wallace]

Based on what he posted the terms of service clearly said Int Op Sea, which is exactly what he wanted.  Why then would he not sign it?

I personally think what they are doing is BS.  Try to fight it.  If Int Op sea is what you want then do a bit of kicking and screaming and see what happens.  The worst they can say is no.  This issue here is a great example of why we have trouble retaining people.

Sorry you disagree, but I know you were there and saw it happen.  It is what the CF and the Branch want and need; NOT your personal "demand" as to what you want.  The CF is not the refuge for "spoiled children". 

 

[ltmaverick25]

To be honest this is the first situation that I have personally heard of this happening.  I know that people havent always gotten their prefered posting location but this is entirely different.  It would be one thing had this member been properly informed about this possibility before hand, but I think we both know that is likely not how it went down.  There are too often nasty little surprises.

I also would not classify this as a "spoiled brat" situation.  The fact of the matter is, if you are not happy with your job or where you work you will be miserable.  That is a huge issue for the individual member, and I would argue and even bigger issue for the CF.  We cant retain guys if we jerk them around like that.  Granted the CF has a bigger need for Army Int Ops, however, if the situation truly is that severe then the offer should have specifically stated the Army element so this member could have made an informed decision.  On another note, it does not take long to train an Int Op to QL5 standard and it is a very popular trade.  It would not be hard to find willing Army Int Op recruits within the CF, it just requires a little direction and leadership god forbid.

But to the original poster, I was an army Int Op and it really is not a bad job.  You will see alot of action and move up to Sgt relatively quickly as that is the working rank in the Int world.  In my opinion the Sea Int side is not nearly as well developed as the army side so if worse comes to worse, you still have a pretty good job in my opinion.

 

[Occam]

Sorry you disagree, but I know you were there and saw it happen.  It is what the CF and the Branch want and need; NOT your personal "demand" as to what you want.  The CF is not the refuge for "spoiled children". 

You're still missing the point, George.  He received an offer that stated "Int Op Sea".  Based upon that offer, he signed the TOS.  Now the CF has reneged on that offer after the TOS are signed.  It's akin to the CF dangling a $20,000 recruiting bonus in front of someone in order to get them to sign on the line, and then once the member shows up at his first unit, they tell him "Sorry, you didn't qualify for the $20,000 because of this little bit of fine print".  If the fine print precluded the member from getting it, then why bother mentioning the recruiting bonus in the first place?  Classic bait and switch.

The CF and Branch may want and need, but they cannot recruit people under false pretenses and break TOS in doing so.  The "spoiled children" comment was a little heavy, don't you think?

 

[George Wallace]

ltmaverick25

As I said, I know darn well that you witnessed people being told what Element they were to become.  At the time it was Air.

You're still missing the point, George.  He received an offer that stated "Int Op Sea".  Based upon that offer, he signed the TOS.  Now the CF has reneged on that offer after the TOS are signed.  It's akin to the CF dangling a $20,000 recruiting bonus in front of someone in order to get them to sign on the line, and then once the member shows up at his first unit, they tell him "Sorry, you didn't qualify for the $20,000 because of this little bit of fine print".  If the fine print precluded the member from getting it, then why bother mentioning the recruiting bonus in the first place?  Classic bait and switch.

The CF and Branch may want and need, but they cannot recruit people under false pretenses and break TOS in doing so.  The "spoiled children" comment was a little heavy, don't you think?

Sorry to burst your bubble Occam, but I have seen all of the above.  It is at the discretion of the Career Manager and Branch.  I know of some who did not get the $20,000 Signing Bonus, as does ltmaverick25, because they did not meet the prerequisites.  A "skilled/semiskilled" applicant MAY QUALIFY for a Signing Bonus is what is stated.  A Signing Bonus is not guaranteed.  That is one reason that Signing Bonus' should not be mentioned to people who do not qualify.  Another reason, Signing Bonus' are not permanent fixtures.  They are there to attract people to undermanned Trades.  Once those Trades are up to strength, then the Signing Bonus' disappear.  They may be here this year, and gone next.  (For more information on Signing Bonus' look up the topics on them.)

 

[George Wallace]

Let's put this another way:

Say we change Navy INT Op to .............. let's say..............LdSH(RC) as a Crewman

.........And the INT Branch to the Armour Branch.

And now the Armour Branch has decided to post our original poster to the RCD as a Crewman.

Does anyone see a problem with this?

We can try it with the Infantry, if you want?

 

[Steel Badger]

George, I agree with your comments above regarding a recruit posted RCD vice LdSH...  But if the INT trades are now environment specific, does that not change the picture?

 

[George Wallace]

George, I agree with your comments above regarding a recruit posted RCD vice LdSH...  But if the INT trades are now environment specific, does that not change the picture?

INT is one Trade.  The Navy guys can also confirm another point..........There is no Navy INT OP.  There are Navy INT O's.  There are NESOPs and NAVCOMs, both of which are different Trades from INT.

Perhaps when the INT Branch sorts out its new QL5A package, things will become clearer as to what direction they are going.  Until then, anyone going INT OP will have to be FLEXIBLE and accept the direction in which the Branch places them.  The Branch is in a state of flux right now, and changing quickly.  They are Recruiting and many do not make the final cut to graduate.  This whole topic may turn out to be a moot point, if holmessean fails out (Another thing I have witnessed a bit of lately.).

 

[Occam]

Sorry to burst your bubble Occam, but I have seen all of the above.  It is at the discretion of the Career Manager and Branch.  I know of some who did not get the $20,000 Signing Bonus, as does ltmaverick25, because they did not meet the prerequisites.  A "skilled/semiskilled" applicant MAY QUALIFY for a Signing Bonus is what is stated.  A Signing Bonus is not guaranteed.  That is one reason that Signing Bonus' should not be mentioned to people who do not qualify.  Another reason, Signing Bonus' are not permanent fixtures.  They are there to attract people to undermanned Trades.  Once those Trades are up to strength, then the Signing Bonus' disappear.  They may be here this year, and gone next.  (For more information on Signing Bonus' look up the topics on them.)

I will bet your next paycheck that in none of the cases you're familiar with, did a recruit ever sign a document stating they were eligible for the recruiting bonus, accept an offer based upon that recruiting bonus, and then later be told that they were no longer eligible for a recruiting bonus.  It's a term of the offer, and the CF is obliged to meet it.  The offers stipulate all sorts of criteria - time credit for incentive, time credit for promotion, QL granted on enrolment (and provisional status if applicable), and yes, environmental affiliation.  If it's there in the offer, it shouldn't be tossed out the window at the whim of the CF.

By the way, I agree with your examples of Crewmen and Infantry.  However, in those cases, we're talking about posting location/initial unit, and not environmental affiliation.

Even the recruiting website indicates that there are Int Ops affiliated with all three branches, and they're usually the last to know.

 

[George Wallace]

Occam

"Environmental Affiliation".  Sorry, but that has been covered several times in the forums, in several different "Purple" Trades.  Army Vern has given an example of it herself, in that she has had to change DEU.  Again a Branch decision. 

The point of Navy INT OPs, has also been covered in other discussions by Navy pers. 

As for Signing Bonus', well it really isn't part of this discussion, and I shouldn't have allowed you to sidetrack the discussion along those lines, but I have seen two people not get it.  Also, it may not be around much longer.  It is a Red Herring in this discussion anyway as holmessean never brought it up in his posts, as he (unskilled) did not qualify for one.

 

[PuckChaser]

2 EW isn't so bad, you'll learn a lot of material here and end up with at least one tour if not 2 out of your posting. You'll fit in with the Navy Comms Rsch guys that look a little out of place driving around Bisons.

 

[Occam]

Occam

"Environmental Affiliation".  Sorry, but that has been covered several times in the forums, in several different "Purple" Trades.  Army Vern has given an example of it herself, in that she has had to change DEU.  Again a Branch decision. 

Apples and oranges.  Army Vern didn't have her DEU changed immediately upon enrolment, there were other mitigating factors later in her career.

The point of Navy INT OPs, has also been covered in other discussions by Navy pers. 

What point is that?  The only point that really matters is that the poster was offered terms.  He signed TOS based upon those terms.  Once he was through the door, the CF reneged on those terms.  It's no different that someone signing on as a Pilot, and then getting told that they've been reassigned to Infantry "due to service requirements".  Not spot on.

As for Signing Bonus', well it really isn't part of this discussion, and I shouldn't have allowed you to sidetrack the discussion along those lines, but I have seen two people not get it.  Also, it may not be around much longer.  It is a Red Herring in this discussion anyway as holmessean never brought it up in his posts, as he (unskilled) did not qualify for one.

I know lots of people who didn't get it.  However, I don't know anyone who was offered it, accepted it, signed on the dotted line, and then had it yanked back.  That's renegeing on the offer of employment, and it's grounds for grievance.  It's bait and switch, just like offering the lad Navy Int Op, and then telling him he's Army after he signs his TOS.

I won't beleaguer the point any further as you appear reluctant to admit there's a breach of the TOS he was offered.

 

[meni0n]

George it is environment specific for now. From CFSMI web site on the DWAN training goes ( I may be off a day or two ):

10 days distance learning
72 Core Training
43 Environment specific training

 

[George Wallace]

I won't beleaguer the point any further as you appear reluctant to admit there's a breach of the TOS he was offered.

Nether will I, as neither of us have seen his actual TOS.

 

[PMedMoe]

I don't think the environment training is trade specific.  From the Recruiting website:

After completing the core phase and cross-environmental training, INT OPs will be trained according to their assigned environment.