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First Nations - CF help, protests, solutions, residential schools, etc. (merged)

Quirky said:
Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.
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That sounds similar to what the Emperor of mankind said to Uriah Olathaire, before being elevated to God-Emperor of mankind.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Doubt it. Once the religion is emptied out of a person's mind, a void remains which most find hard to fill; there is no longer any higher authority to appeal to in order to settle the matter of what ought to be nor any hope to cling to in adversity except what one creates for oneself. A few can manage this; most break.
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A void is only created when something leaves. What if that 'something' was never there? Thousands of people are successfully raised in a secular environment everyday. If the position is that they are somehow lacking and perhaps just don't realize it, that would a tad judgmental.

I get faith, I don't get organized religion.
 
Some were good farmers. Some were good bricklayers. Others were good story tellers. And they needed some of that crop yield, and some bricks laid too...

But in this day & age, are churches the biggest problem we have? Hardly. As many others have pointed out, many do a lot of good in the community when the government can't or won't. It still doesn't make any of it real, but it also isn't a huge priority to dismantle. If organized religion helps some people find purpose in their life, that's awesome. Wish it worked for me!
 
Quirky said:
Churches serve no purpose. Other than the crime of arson, purging of religion is a good thing. Brick by brick.
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I’m not a worshipper but you’re crossing a line. Maybe you don’t like religions but some very good folk do.
I don’t like soccer so let’s dismantle that field by field
 
If this was arson, and to be honest it’s hard not to jump to conclusions, then it’s clear that this was a message to the Catholic Church.

the church has never been known for transparency and right now they don’t seem to want to be very cooperative or apologetic. I get it. It has financial ramifications. But it smacks of their usual strategy when confronted by scandal.

In this case, I think the Church should do all it can to make reparations or at least unseal documents and be more transparent. Not just because it would be the right thing to do but also avoid more erosion of its membership in Canada.
 
Remius said:
If this was arson, and to be honest it’s hard not to jump to conclusions, then it’s clear that this was a message to the Catholic Church.

the church has never been known for transparency and right now they don’t seem to want to be very cooperative or apologetic. I get it. It has financial ramifications. But it smacks of their usual strategy when confronted by scandal.

In this case, I think the Church should do all it can to make reparations or at least unseal documents and be more transparent. Not just because it would be the right thing to do but also avoid more erosion of its membership in Canada.
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Because building in two different locations spontaneously combust all the time? Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe?

Now another question, is this a hate crime, is this terrorism? If this was to occur to a place of worship of any other religion (although probably not a Protestant Church) it would easily be to use both terms.
 
Kilted said:
... Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe? ...
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Given that statements at least adjacent to an apology have been delivered in 2018 and 2010 to people mistreated while in the Catholic church's care, some can be forgiven for thinking it's not Papal infallibility holding things back here.

For the record, here's what Canada's Conference of Catholic Bishops has had to say about who's responsible - highlights mine:
The Catholic community in Canada has a decentralized structure. Each Diocesan Bishop is autonomous in his diocese and, although relating to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, is not accountable to it.

Approximately 16 out of 70 Catholic dioceses in Canada were associated with the former Indian Residential Schools, in addition to about three dozen Catholic religious communities. Each diocese and religious community is corporately and legally responsible for its own actions. The Catholic Church as a whole in Canada was not associated with the Residential Schools, nor was the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops.

In a brief submitted to the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples in November 1993, the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops said that “various types of abuse experienced at some residential schools have moved us to a profound examination of conscience as a Church.”

Already in 1991, Canadian Catholic Bishops and leaders of men and women religious communities had issued a statement that “We are sorry and deeply regret the pain, suffering and alienation that so many experienced” at the Residential Schools.
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Kilted said:
Because building in two different locations spontaneously combust all the time? Isn't the fact that the Pope hasn't apologized related to the concept of papal infallibility, where the pope can't say anything wrong according to what Catholics believe?

Now another question, is this a hate crime, is this terrorism? If this was to occur to a place of worship of any other religion (although probably not a Protestant Church) it would easily be to use both terms.
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Hey, I'm being careful not to declare it as arson until the authorities say so. Like I said it isn't hard to jump to that conclusion.

Papal apologies aren't a new concept and has happened before for a variety of things. The Irish sex abuse scandal, the treatment of Latin America during colonial times, the role the church played during the holocaust etc etc. Normally the Pope does it in person.

The concept of Papal infallibility is related to Church Doctrine and Faith. It has to meet certain conditions and isn't universally accepted nor is it something that's been around for that long (I think it was introduced in the late 1800s early 1900s but would have to check). So I would argue that no. A lack of apology has nothing to do with that.

Now is it a hate crime or not? Maybe. Terrorism? It would depend on the motivation but I would be less likely to support that argument. Not enough info right now to know. I see it in a similar to vandalism caused to monuments and symbols.
 
Also for the record, some franchises of Big Church* seem to be trying to do the right thing ....
Ottawa-Cornwall Archbishop Marcel Damphousse issued a formal apology Monday to Indigenous people for the Catholic Church's role in the residential school system.

He also called on Pope Francis, the global head of the church of approximately 1.3 billion people, to apologize, as well ...
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Meanwhile, elsewhere in Big Church ...
Cardinal Thomas Collins, the archbishop of Toronto, said Sunday that a "dramatic" step such as a formal apology from the Pope is perhaps not the best route forward in grappling with the Catholic Church's role in Canada's residential school system.

"I'm sure there will be further contact with the Holy Father, but I don't know whether seeking always some big and dramatic thing is really the way forward. I think step by step is better and working with other people," Collins said in an interview on Rosemary Barton Live.

"I think that the much more important thing is the day-to-day work, quietly, gently," he told CBC chief political correspondent Rosemary Barton ...
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* - This is to differentiate the "corporate" church/bureaucracy from all the branches/churches/parishes that truly are doing good things to help people out there.
 
Using the standards to attack MacDonald, the majority of FN Bands should be censured as well for promoting slavery and oppression of women. Not to mention the inhumane treatment of prisoners in their care.
 
Remius said:
An excellent article in defence of MacDonald.
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I'm not a huge fan of either David Frum or The Atlantic, but I thought so as well.

I'd read something similar in the Kingston paper - also outlining that it was very unlikely that he could have known what was actually happening - a few months ago but could not find it online. This, I think, was better.

I had waffled on my support for Sir John, and my natural objection to statue removals and other history purges had waned somewhat, since reading more about the particular horrors suffered in those schools but I am back to seeing him as somebody who did far more good than bad.

. . . While still completely conscious of the evils committed on those children and their families.
 
I was going to comment on youusing Frum or the Atlantic lol. But it’s more about the argument and the point he makes.

It is a balancing act. I think what the Kingston Coucil did was about as much as they could and struck a decent balance.

it’s a case by case situation in my mind. I have no issues with places in the US removing statues of traitors and that were erected for the sole purpose of reminding a minority of who was still in charge.

I don’t think though, that a statue to Sir John A would have been erected with the same goals or purpose. We can’t deny that he was and is our first PM. Instrumental in what Canada would become. I am also conscious that for some, he heralded in the end of certain ways of life even though he himself may not have been responsible.

It was a well argued article that gives one food for thought.
 
As I said before, the people prior to the 20th century had some reasoning in their beliefs even if you disagree with them and life was a lot harder all around. But after the start of the 20th century, the differences between lifestyle and health outcomes between native and non-native begin to diverge quickly. It was at the start of the 20th Century that Eugenics started to take hold in the minds of the upper class and Elite and I suspect that line of reasoning had a lot to do with it.
 
So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…

How long before this statue comes down?

744A202E-4BDA-491A-ACAD-DB77AE81DD9B.jpeg
You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”
 
Good2Golf said:
So let’s move into the late 20th-Century…an era of democratic enlightenment…

How long before this statue comes down?

View attachment 65535
You know, the guy who wanted to offer Canada’s indigenous peoples a ‘New Deal’ in a flashy White Paper in 1969 through what was known and intended to be full assimilation, under the guise of repealing the Indian Act, and transferring only the existing reservation land as well as downloading all follow-on funding and claims to the provinces…and, when the First Nations challenged the many flaws in his plan, he threw a hissy fit and non-constructively, but predictably responded: “We’ll keep them in the ghetto as long as they want.”
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But he was good at shoveling money off the back of the truck to everyone in Eastern Canada, so we'll overlook that :)
 
cavalryman said:
Just out of curiosity, would you say the same for mosques, synagogues, gurdwaras, temples, etc? Or is your focus entirely on Christian houses of worship? Asking for a friend.
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Yes sir, religion is the real pandemic on this planet. But that’s a discussion for another thread.
 
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