Fat troops on the street....

[Haggis]

It still baffles me why anyone in our line of work even needs their leaders to tell them to get in shape. Why would you WANT to be unfit and in the army at the same time? Fit soldiers are more likeley to survive ob the battlefield than fat, unfit ones, isn't it a pretty simple issue of self preservation? What do these people want? A memo from the CDS explaining this to them?   ???

In a way, given the context of your comment, you sort of answered your own question.  "Fit soldiers are more likely to survive on the battlefield."  True, but with our readiness verification system "fat" (unfit) soldiers have an even higher chance of survival because they won't DAG Green and deploy at all.  If one does slip through the cracks (pretty big crack, I'd think) and is deployed, it's likely he won't be anywhere near the sharp end because his peers and superiors can't rely on him to go when the going gets tough.

I know I'm generalizing.  There are some soldiers who would qualify as fat compared to Col Stogran, Lorne Ford, Vic Hickey etc, who can more than pull thier weight.  In my mind the Army has two types of soldier:  Gazelles and Gorillas.  Both have thier place.  Hippos don't.

 

[sapper07]

 I hear alot of blah blah blah, but in the end, and of which alot of you "harder types" have already mentioned we need to move on and stop trying to make this army of the people a "reflection" of the people.  If you have been reading the news we are as a country getting fatter every year.  So is that what we reflect is fat?  We in the military need not get fatter but leaner, fitter, faster and stronger because in the end you need these attributes to carry the extra weight, unless you for one don't want to wear the armour plates when over seas along with everything else which is mission essential.  That's your call.  Now I have been in the stiuation where someone has some sort of issue of weight and they can't lose it.  Well I feel for you, and understand there are medical conditions out there, but if you can't perform as a contributing member of a section within a section enviroment then you really need to move on to another trade.  I speak more towards the combat arms, the other trades can do whatever they want.  There is absolutely no place for obesity in the combat arms.  

 There's a simple resolution for this, and what I speak of is a combination of basically two words.  They are image (towards those that look in from the outside) and they are having trouble recruiting I wonder why?  And being able to do your job.  It's called the BMI.  Bring it back!!

 

[Britney Spears]

In a way, given the context of your comment, you sort of answered your own question.  "Fit soldiers are more likely to survive on the battlefield."  True, but with our readiness verification system "fat" (unfit) soldiers have an even higher chance of survival because they won't DAG Green and deploy at all.  If one does slip through the cracks (pretty big crack, I'd think) and is deployed, it's likely he won't be anywhere near the sharp end because his peers and superiors can't rely on him to go when the going gets tough.

Well, if the purpose of being unfit was to avoid being deployed, then these characters should truly be drummed out of the army, because they have much more serious issues than simple physical fitness.

 

[FITSUMO]

It's called the BMI.  Bring it back!!

on this note, pete reid( canada's top ironman tirathlete would be considered obese), so would tom cruse, and any NFL linebacker, and NHL defense man, and any one who is not a stick.  The BMI is flawed, period.  I have a good friend in TO who is 304 lbs, obese right?, VERY WRONG he has 4.2% body fat.  
You want fitter soldiers, change the standards of getting in, and demand more when on BMQ.  I, myself am a "fattie"( for now), but I can almost pass all the PT tests that are out there( US, British, CAN), pullups are the problem, but I am not going to stop until I can pass them all( personal goal).  But under sapper07 standards I wouldn't be able to do my job because I am high on the BMI, CRAP.

 

[George Wallace]

Well, if the purpose of being unfit was to avoid being deployed, then these characters should truly be drummed out of the army, because they have much more serious issues than simple physical fitness.

Now you are bring up another serious problem:  ATTITUDE.

How many times have we all seen the Soldier/Sailor/Airman who didn't want to deploy?  The guy who thought the military was a 9 to 5 job and a easy way to make a buck so that he/she could go to school or retire with a good pension.  I've seen Cbt Arms units have to backfill Svc Bn posns because many of their people refused to deploy.  Talk about putting extra strain on the Cbt Arms.  But that is a topic for another thread.

 

[Armymedic]

It's called the BMI.  Bring it back!!

BMI was removed because as an absolute it was found to be an ineffective determanant of fitness. Too many fit soldiers were considered overwieght and obese because thier BMI was too high.

I myself was one of these soldiers. I was the fittest member of my Sqn, running 10k races, playing unit and base level sports, and on recorded warning because my BMI was higher then 29 which meant I was overwieght.Make sence?

That is one example why BMI is no longer used as a standard.

Now as a medical person, I would avocate the use of BMI as a guideline during your medical. If you have another condition, high blood pressure for example, and a BMI of lets say, higher then 31, then you are immediately put on med cat. But thats my humble opinion, there are several people who make several times more money then me to decide these things.

 

[sapper07]

 Let me add to what I have already mentioned of which should go without me saying is an opinion.  The BMI is a good indicator, but it's just that, yes I too have seen some seriously in shape troops that were over the BMI level and were told to lose weight.  Ths is a crime.  So with the BMI there should also be some tolerance.

 Here's quote I just found.   Make you own mind up.  


 "The state of the Army can be evaluated by how its soldiers look in uniform, at any airport in the world."

 

[FITSUMO]

"The state of the Army can be evaluated by how its soldiers look in uniform, at any airport in the world."

great statement( thus the reason I am trying to be able pass all the PT tests, that I can find)......

maybe I am biased, because when i am "dressed up' ( in the past in uniform( and hopefully again)  or in a suite) my back and shoulders cam my gut..... .................


if the standards where higher and the public was more aware of the higher standards would the look of a soldier matter as much( just a question)......

 

[sapper07]

  Well you made me laugh, at when you said "cam my gut."  There's a saying "if you can't clean it cam it!"

  Responding to your last sentence, I personally think it matters that we as the CF portray a physically fit rapport with the visually stricken society that we represent.  I will say as a leader of troops, that I would have any man or woman, in the section that first and foremost had a positive attitude towards the problem as with you.  But now on to fixing it...

 

[GO!!!]

I agree with Army Medic on the uselessness of the BMI. Two years ago, I worked out like a madman, 3hrs a day in the gym, protein shakes, creatine, 150$ in groceries a week - and I got huge - I was able to bench my goal of 315lbs x 5 reps, and run 10km in 34minutes and change. I was at the UofA working out (OK, fishing for chicks) and had a hottie there do a BMI and bodyfat test on me. 6.3% bodyfat and a 31 on the BMI - as far as the army was concerned - I was obese - even though I scored 85+ on the coopers test!

That test had to go - which is why I think that the JTF and 3VP are on the right track with the Cooper's test. This is a test of capabilities and strength, not how much extra weight you drag around.

Not to defend the plump either, but if you can run 2.4km in 10 mins or less, do 10 pull ups, fifty pushups and fifty situps in a minute and bench your bodyweight, you  are decently fit - just maybe not in the most appealing shape.

I guess I'm saying that we must be careful not to confuse "fitness" and "being in shape"

 

[Haggis]

That test had to go - which is why I think that the JTF and 3VP are on the right track with the Cooper's test. This is a test of capabilities and strength, not how much extra weight you drag around.

Agreed.  As a medical risk factor indicator BMI is useful once all other body composition and lifestyle factors are considered.

The Cooper's Test is not the "all encompassing" fix.  Here's an example.

During Op Palladium Roto 13 the RCD BG used the Cooper's Test as a "Personal Best" indicator.  The idea was to test before deployment and test twice again during deployment to gauge your personal progress as the CO expected the BG soldier to do PT at least six days a week.  I had a "somewhat round" Sgt in my company who could get through the run portion adequately but could pump out push ups like a machine and bench press an Iltis (with radios installed)  Test run time aside, he could also sprint the 100 m faster than half his platoon.  Was he "out of shape"?  In the eyes of the BMI, yes. Using our current standard, the BFT, no (although a ruck looked like a nuke bag when he wore it).  Neither with the Coopers Test however his scores were skewed by the push ups and bench press.

I guess I'm saying that we must be careful not to confuse "fitness" and "being in shape"

Right you are.  And to add to that, don't confuse slim with fit.

:warstory:
On my QL6B in 1988 we had a "appearingly fat" WO as one of our instructors.  The instructors would rotate each morning taking the course on PT.  We candidates dreaded PT with this WO who was nicknamed "Chubby Death".  Despite his size and apparent "fatness" this guy was surprisingly fit and would routinely work the shyte out of us younger and supposedly fitter Sgts.

 

[GO!!!]

I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of "skewed" but I see it this way - if someone is one of the brotherhood of mass - can bench bench an iltis and curl a howitzer, but is only marginal on the run, they are still fit, just with an emphasis on strength. The opposite end of the spectrum is those who hide from sudden gusts of wind behind flagpoles, can run like the wind, but fall down on the strength exercises.

Both of the people above are fit, will encounter less injury and will enjoy good health. As long as they achieve the minimums, who really cares if one maxes out at 450 and the other at 70. They both achieved the minimum of 65.

In my experience, most fitness tests are skewed in favour of light, skinny fast guys anyway.

I agree with your statement on those who achieve the oxymoron of "fatfit" and somehow manage to outperform their slimmer and more muscular colleagues on a regular basis.

The Coopers test is a measure of OVERALL fitness, with a composite score, so it represents that, being "skewed" is not a bad thing, as long as you get your minimum ten pts in each catagory.

 

[Haggis]

I'm not sure if I agree with your definition of "skewed" but I see it this way - if someone is one of the brotherhood of mass - can bench bench an iltis and curl a howitzer, but is only marginal on the run, they are still fit, just with an emphasis on strength. The opposite end of the spectrum is those who hide from sudden gusts of wind behind flagpoles, can run like the wind, but fall down on the strength exercises.

... what I said earlier about Gorillas and Gazelles.  IMHO the fittest soldiers are the Gorillas who aspire to be Gazelles.

 

[GO!!!]

... what I said earlier about Gorillas and Gazelles.   IMHO the fittest soldiers are the Gorillas who aspire to be Gazelles.

I'll buy that.

 

[buzgo]

Gazillas?

Gorzelles?

 

[George Wallace]

Gazillas?

Gorzelles?

Alright...who's posting from Happy Hour?

 

[Brad Sallows]

>IMHO the fittest soldiers are the Gorillas who aspire to be Gazelles.

Doesn't the CF pay for part of that surgery?

 

[buzgo]

Alright...who's posting from Happy Hour?

Un-happy hour... I'm covering an evening shift at work because people had to go on the Managing Stress Effectively course...  :'(

 

[Haggis]

Un-happy hour... I'm covering an evening shift at work because people had to go on the Managing Stress Effectively course...   :'(

Ha!  I went to one of those after about 6 months at NDHQ.  My boss thought I could be a good "resource" to help others cope.

I was the only uniform in the room, about 5 of us.  Each had to describe their current methods of dealing with stress.  Answers ranged from  "biofeedback" through "meditation" to 'long walks in the woods".  I replied "I work out, hit the heavy bag, shoot skeet and drink beer on weekends."

I was asked to leave.  ;D

 

[Springroll]

Ha!   I went to one of those after about 6 months at NDHQ.   My boss thought I could be a good "resource" to help others cope.

I was the only uniform in the room, about 5 of us.   Each had to describe their current methods of dealing with stress.   Answers ranged from   "biofeedback" through "meditation" to 'long walks in the woods".   I replied "I work out, hit the heavy bag, shoot skeet and drink beer on weekends."

I was asked to leave.    ;D

Your ways sounds like how I handle my stress, other than the beer part...I drink gin and tonic instead  ;D