Domestic and Arctic Mobility Enhancement Project

[KevinB]

We can't get an armoured Brigade to Seoul or Southampton in a timely fashion. And you expect to get one to Eureka or the Barren Lands? The good news is that nobody else can get one there either.

Most countries have them, and could get them there.
Canada has neither ability.

Nordkapp in something else again. There are other people, starting with the Norwegians, Swedes and Finns that can bring those assets to the fight. But despite their couple hundred tanks and their similar numbers of APCs their ATVs number in the range of 10,000 or so. And the Poles and the Balts have been offering barracks for Light Infantry.

First we have to get wherever it is we want to go.

Honestly it’s a three part issue.
1) Having the Equipment and Personnel
2) Having the Ability to move and support them
3) Having the willingness to do the above.

Canada is 0/3 on this.

 

[daftandbarmy]

We can't get an armoured Brigade to Seoul or Southampton in a timely fashion. And you expect to get one to Eureka or the Barren Lands? The good news is that nobody else can get one there either.

Nordkapp in something else again. There are other people, starting with the Norwegians, Swedes and Finns that can bring those assets to the fight. But despite their couple hundred tanks and their similar numbers of APCs their ATVs number in the range of 10,000 or so. And the Poles and the Balts have been offering barracks for Light Infantry.

First we have to get wherever it is we want to go.

Here's what the Russians are doing at high latitudes right now... and it seems to include heavy armour:

Satellite images reveal changes at key Russian military bases in the Arctic​

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's what the Russians are doing at high latitudes right now... and it seems to include heavy armour:

Satellite images reveal changes at key Russian military bases in the Arctic​

We can't get pilots to renew because of Cold Lake.

This would be the equivalent of posting 12e RBC to Alert.

The one thing I notice is the presence of trees alongside of the tanks. Those trees represent pluses and minuses. The first thing they represent is a relatively moderate climate and shelter. On the other hand they represent two way cover and concealment.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Since the Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement project has moved into the definition stage are there variants such as 120mm mortar, Javelin (or something similar) or Air Defense included with the project? There are usually only troop transport, command, recovery and ambulance variants discussed with the BV10 (Viking).

 

[Spencer100]

Since the Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement project has moved into the definition stage are there variants such as 120mm mortar, Javelin (or something similar) or Air Defense included with the project? There are usually only troop transport, command, recovery and ambulance variants discussed with the BV10 (Viking).

I would doubt AD as the CAF has no AD. Not based on fighters or ships.

This project is so weird to me that it takes years. If you're looking for a replacement of the hagglund you have two choices that I can see ST Bronco and BAE Viking. Then after that which upgrades you want? Armour package, coms etc.

What people in Ottawa do all day? In the end I doubt we are going to reinvent the wheel here.

Damn if the program is funded at treasury board level. Issue the RFQ. Then get the to ship a test unit each let's the boys have at it...see which they like. Unsealed the bids and hope it's the cheaper one. Put the scoring for the dumb stuff the government likes. Get the score award the job. Sign the contract.....take delivery.

 

[Prairie canuck]

I would doubt AD as the CAF has no AD. Not based on fighters or ships.

This project is so weird to me that it takes years. If you're looking for a replacement of the hagglund you have two choices that I can see ST Bronco and BAE Viking. Then after that which upgrades you want? Armour package, coms etc.

What people in Ottawa do all day? In the end I doubt we are going to reinvent the wheel here.

Damn if the program is funded at treasury board level. Issue the RFQ. Then get the to ship a test unit each let's the boys have at it...see which they like. Unsealed the bids and hope it's the cheaper one. Put the scoring for the dumb stuff the government likes. Get the score award the job. Sign the contract.....take delivery.

They're claiming they're ahead of schedule! They may get deliveries in 2025 as opposed to the original 2028/29 schedule. It's still going to take 5 yrs!
"C'mon kid, chocolate or vanilla, it's all there is.."
I believe the Sherp is trying to wedge itself into the conversation too.

 

[Spencer100]

They're claiming they're ahead of schedule! They may get deliveries in 2025 as opposed to the original 2028/29 schedule. It's still going to take 5 yrs!
"C'mon kid, chocolate or vanilla, it's all there is.."
I believe the Sherp is trying to wedge itself into the conversation too.

I don't know how much of the Sherp is manufactured in Canada or just final bolt on pieces. The Ukraine supply chain on that vehicle is problematic. I don't know how much ODG is doing here if it's just an Argo sticker and using the dealer network or they are building part of it for the North American market. I did ask months ago when the ads were popping up everyday on my Facebook. Didn't get a straightforward answer. But if they are that's going to be highest Canadian content.

The only other is if Foremost wants a piece. As assembly supplier to BAE or ST or bid something themselves?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Since the Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement project has moved into the definition stage are there variants such as 120mm mortar, Javelin (or something similar) or Air Defense included with the project? There are usually only troop transport, command, recovery and ambulance variants discussed with the BV10 (Viking).

Based on what our foe (Russia) seems to be developing by way of arctic capabilities, we'd better figure out how to deploy and sustain armoured brigades in the arctic otherwise we'll be doing the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Based on what our foe (Russia) seems to be developing by way of arctic capabilities, we'd better figure out how to deploy and sustain armoured brigades in the arctic otherwise we'll be doing the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight.

Isn't that actually the plan ?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Isn't that actually the plan ?

Based on what's in here, no.

Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement - Defence Capabilities Blueprint

Domestic Arctic Mobility Enhancement - Defence Capabilities Blueprint

dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca

 

[Prairie canuck]

I don't know how much of the Sherp is manufactured in Canada or just final bolt on pieces. The Ukraine supply chain on that vehicle is problematic. I don't know how much ODG is doing here if it's just an Argo sticker and using the dealer network or they are building part of it for the North American market. I did ask months ago when the ads were popping up everyday on my Facebook. Didn't get a straightforward answer. But if they are that's going to be highest Canadian content.

The only other is if Foremost wants a piece. As assembly supplier to BAE or ST or bid something themselves?

Seems there's a Canadian built competitor to the Sherp manufactured in Bromont, Quebec Fat Truck

 

[Spencer100]

Seems there's a Canadian built competitor to the Sherp manufactured in Bromont, Quebec Fat Truck

Interesting.

Here is the thing for a small manufacturer to even quote would be too much for them. Putting the RFP response together is a killer. They would get past the risk assessment stage. Even a medium size like company like ODG would have problems and they have done some military work and even have a dealer network.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Interesting.

Here is the thing for a small manufacturer to even quote would be too much for them. Putting the RFP response together is a killer. They would get past the risk assessment stage. Even a medium size like company like ODG would have problems and they have done some military work and even have a dealer network.

There's likely monetary, engineering, and business support available from private or public business development organizations. I'm sure there's all kinds of retired CAF personnel looking for consultant work too.

 

[Prairie canuck]

It would be a definite "out of the box" exercise but how about holding a demonstration/competition where interested and invited manufacturers (including non-military manufacturers) are tasked with moving a stated load: artillery, HQ, accommodations, kitchen, fuel and 20 personnel, from Iqaluit to Nanisivik overland. It's a long enough trip to evaluate vehicles, get actual travel times, and create some best/worst practice reports.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There's likely monetary, engineering, and business support available from private or public business development organizations. I'm sure there's all kinds of retired CAF personnel looking for consultant work too.

And what makes you think they'd be any good at that kind of work?

 

[Prairie canuck]

And what makes you think they'd be any good at that kind of work?

Wild speculation on my part...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Most countries have them, and could get them there.
Canada has neither ability.


Honestly it’s a three part issue.
1) Having the Equipment and Personnel
2) Having the Ability to move and support them
3) Having the willingness to do the above.

Canada is 0/3 on this.

To be fair, Canada's purchase of C17 and C130J was inspired and does give us far more organic abilty to move equipment than ever before. It would be nice if we added a couple of A350F to compliment that cargo moving capability. I really wished we had bought two more C17's.

 

[Furniture]

And what makes you think they'd be any good at that kind of work?

If they weren't good they'd still be in?

 

[KevinB]

To be fair, Canada's purchase of C17 and C130J was inspired and does give us far more organic abilty to move equipment than ever before.

So in the land of the blind…

It would be nice if we added a couple of A350F to compliment that cargo moving capability. I really wished we had bought two more C17's.

IMHO Canada needed 20-28 C-17
AND 40 J Herc’s for local tactical movement and support.

 

[Kirkhill]

To be fair, Canada's purchase of C17 and C130J was inspired and does give us far more organic abilty to move equipment than ever before. It would be nice if we added a couple of A350F to compliment that cargo moving capability. I really wished we had bought two more C17's.

C130 J - 3300 km at 15 tonnes
cargo compartment: width 3.05 m x height 2.74 m x length 17.1 m

A400M - 3300 km at 37 tonnes
cargo compartment: width 4.00 m x height 3.85 m x length 17.71 m (without ramp 5.40 m )

C17 - 4480 km at 72 tonnes
cargo compartment: width 5.5 m x height 3.76 m x length 27 m

BvS10 Viking - 15 tonnes (GVW) 10.6 tonnes (curb)
width 2.1 m x height 2.2 m x length 7.6 m

BvS10 Beowulf - 15 tonnes (GVW) 7 tonnes (curb)
width 2.2 m x height 2.5 m x length 8 m

Is it worth adding another fleet by bringing in the A400s or are we better off adding C130s and, as Colin suggests, some long range civvy freighters?

A350F - 8700 km at 109 tonnes
cargo compartment: width 5.71 m x height ??? x length ???