Does the CF use Cooling Vests?

[adaminc]

Hello all,

I was just wondering if anyone knew if the CF was using cooling vests out in Afghanistan or other high temperature places, and not in-vehicle systems, but personal systems? I was just recently reading about them, and for the most part, the companies who are developing these systems, all seem to focus on ice-pack based systems.

Anyways, I read that the DRDC was doing some research into them back in 2007 and I was wondering if they have started to put them in use yet.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Hello all,

I was just wondering if anyone knew if the CF was using cooling vests out in Afghanistan or other high temperature places, and not in-vehicle systems, but personal systems? I was just recently reading about them, and for the most part, the companies who are developing these systems, all seem to focus on ice-pack based systems.

Anyways, I read that the DRDC was doing some research into them back in 2007 and I was wondering if they have started to put them in use yet.

I'm sorry. I didn't really mean that.

But to answer. Not that I'm aware of.

 

[armyvern]

Have no idea what the current sitrep is with them, but they were trialled overseas back in 03. And, the consensus was ... they needed work!

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Have no idea what the current sitrep is with them, but they were trialled overseas back in 03. And, the consensus was ... they needed work!

Hmmm. Never heard about them when I was there. But that's not unusal either.

 

[adaminc]

The main reason I am asking all this is because I have come up with a new design for a cooling vest that would possibly work very well, the only problem is I don't have the money to develop the system right now, so I will be waiting until I am in the CF, I will be applying for LCIS Trade.

I was reading CFAO 99-4 -- INVENTIONS on the ADM site, and it talks about Crown Rights, specifically it says this

CROWN RIGHTS

11. All rights in an invention, in Canada and elsewhere, are vested in Her Majesty when the invention is made by a member of the Canadian Forces or a civilian employee of the Department of National Defence:

    a.  while acting within the scope of his duties or employment;

    b.  with facilities, equipment or financial aid provided by or on
          behalf of Her Majesty; or

    c.  as a result of or in connection with his duties or employment.

12. An invention which is made under conditions other than those defined in para 11 also shall be reported. If such an invention has a defence use, arrangements may be made to acquire rights to use the invention and to compensate the inventor.

I was wondering if I build this in my own private off time, since it doesn't have anything to do with the LCIS Trade but with the basic health of a soldier, would it be usurped by the Crown? or would this fall under paragraph 12.

 

[armyvern]

The main reason I am asking all this is because I have come up with a new design for a cooling vest that would possibly work very well, the only problem is I don't have the money to develop the system right now, so I will be waiting until I am in the CF, I will be applying for LCIS Trade.

I was reading CFAO 99-4 -- INVENTIONS on the ADM site, and it talks about Crown Rights, specifically it says this

CROWN RIGHTS

11. All rights in an invention, in Canada and elsewhere, are vested in Her Majesty when the invention is made by a member of the Canadian Forces or a civilian employee of the Department of National Defence:

     a.   while acting within the scope of his duties or employment;

     b.   with facilities, equipment or financial aid provided by or on
          behalf of Her Majesty; or

     c.   as a result of or in connection with his duties or employment.

12. An invention which is made under conditions other than those defined in para 11 also shall be reported. If such an invention has a defence use, arrangements may be made to acquire rights to use the invention and to compensate the inventor.

I was wondering if I build this in my own private off time, since it doesn't have anything to do with the LCIS Trade but with the basic health of a soldier, would it be usurped by the Crown? or would this fall under paragraph 12.

I'm going to link your post to another member here ... who actually called my office today ref this very CFAO. If you want direction as to how to go about this when you get in --- he'd be the one to talk to.

Vern

 

[Loachman]

DCIEM, now DRDC Toronto, developed cooling vests for the Sea Kings that deployed to the Gulf War. This was principally to deal with the additional heat stress of wearing full NBCW protective gear while flying.

 

[armyvern]

DCIEM, now DRDC Toronto, developed cooling vests for the Sea Kings that deployed to the Gulf War. This was principally to deal with the additional heat stress of wearing full NBCW protective gear while flying.

The ones that we trialled were more shirt-like than vest-like.

 

[adaminc]

DCIEM, now DRDC Toronto, developed cooling vests for the Sea Kings that deployed to the Gulf War. This was principally to deal with the additional heat stress of wearing full NBCW protective gear while flying.

I am betting that these vests use some sort of large non portable A/C like unit built into the Sea King, my idea is a portable one man, no ice pack, vest/shirt.

 

[1feral1]

Hello to all our most gracious members and guests.

During my tour in the Baghdad region, we toyed with the idea of cooling vests for use with our LAVs when it was a balmy 55C w/3% humidity. Add on more in the sun, and even more again inside a LAV.

One main concern was the cooling chemicals, and its toxicity when introduced to flesh at velocity WRT frag/shrap wounds. Most chemicals used in the vests were indeed proven to be toxic if forced into flesh causing more unnecessary and potentially fatal trauma.

Our most direct threat was IED, EFP and IDF, along with SAF, so the chances of an incident involving a cooling vest chemicals vs flesh was constant. Its not as we were back in the safety of Ali Al Salem in Kuwait, or other similar safe areas, whre maybe such an idea for troops in the heat could use such a thing.

Anyways, the idea was immediatly abandoned. Once we found out the potential dangers the idea was dropped like a hot potato.

We just rolled with it, and drank more water.

We were excited aas autum and winter rolled around.


Happy days,

OWDU

 

[adaminc]

OWDU, that's good information to know. However, with my idea, the only fluid (the working fluid) in use is water, so I don't think it would cause such a problem. However, I am wondering if the tubing used would be a problem, I will have to check into it.

 

[Loachman]

I am betting that these vests use some sort of large non portable A/C like unit built into the Sea King, my idea is a portable one man, no ice pack, vest/shirt.

Ice Pack.

 

[adaminc]

You wouldn't happen to know how long they lasted?

 

[GAP]

OWDU, that's good information to know. However, with my idea, the only fluid (the working fluid) in use is water, so I don't think it would cause such a problem. However, I am wondering if the tubing used would be a problem, I will have to check into it.

What about power consumption? Is this something that you are plugging into the LAV power system to circulate/cool the water? The power draw on even a small pump is horrendous if you are talking about battery power...

The working fluid might be water, but the heat/cooling transfer is terrible for water vs (eg methanol alcohol/antifreeze. That's why car engines don't work well on water only coolant....it's inefficient...

 

[adaminc]

It will be both pluggable into a power system and battery powered, the pump I have lined up only uses 18W. My main worry about my system is how long it should last, that is to say, the amount and weight of the batteries which could be the heaviest part.

 

[GAP]

It will be both pluggable into a power system and battery powered, the pump I have lined up only uses 18W. My main worry about my system is how long it should last, that is to say, the amount and weight of the batteries which could be the heaviest part.

Using the standard power formula P=IE, then 18W of power will draw (on a 24 v system) .75 Amp of current....that's a huge draw on batteries..

 

[Farmboy]

The main reason I am asking all this is because I have come up with a new design for a cooling vest that would possibly work very well, the only problem is I don't have the money to develop the system right now, so I will be waiting until I am in the CF, I will be applying for LCIS Trade.

I was reading CFAO 99-4 -- INVENTIONS on the ADM site, and it talks about Crown Rights, specifically it says this

CROWN RIGHTS

11. All rights in an invention, in Canada and elsewhere, are vested in Her Majesty when the invention is made by a member of the Canadian Forces or a civilian employee of the Department of National Defence:

    a.  while acting within the scope of his duties or employment;

    b.  with facilities, equipment or financial aid provided by or on
          behalf of Her Majesty; or

    c.  as a result of or in connection with his duties or employment.

12. An invention which is made under conditions other than those defined in para 11 also shall be reported. If such an invention has a defence use, arrangements may be made to acquire rights to use the invention and to compensate the inventor.

I was wondering if I build this in my own private off time, since it doesn't have anything to do with the LCIS Trade but with the basic health of a soldier, would it be usurped by the Crown? or would this fall under paragraph 12.

Suggestion; 

1) Stay out of the CF.  Even if they compensate you when they take your product it won't be that much at all.

2) Make a working copy asap even if you have to beg, borrow, etc..... the money to get it done.  Ideas cannot be protected however you can patent it if you have a working model (if it's new). 

With a working copy as well you will find it easier to get a government grant, funding or private investor/ company that would help you bring it to market.

3) Once you have a working model it can be changed and improved with feedback

4) Think about other markets where this would sell

5) Think about a company that would build it and market it, then approach them about licencing it. ("Allen Vanguard" comes to mind)

 

[Greymatters]

6) Build a 'field-testing' phase into your testing plan and keep accurate records of your testing.   

7) Make an accurate assessment of production costs for a single vest and for mass production of 100+ vests.

 

[aesop081]

Also make sure that your plan includes the final product be manufactured in Quebec.  ;D

 

[Greymatters]

Shawinigan Cooling Vests Inc.?

( En francais, of course...  )