Cutting the CF/DND HQ bloat - Excess CF Sr Leadership, Public Servants and Contractors

[Neill McKay]

And, while we're at it, perhaps look at the civvie side of the house as well: why is there an Asst Dep Minister of Infrastructure and Environment, instead of just using the Major General he's got as Chief of Staff to fill the billet; ditto the Asst Dep Minister (Materiel) who has a MGen as his Deputy CoS?

You're touching on the answer to your question here.  The conventional wisdom is that many of the flag and general officers in NDHQ are there because there's a perceived requirement for pay parity with the civil service staff who are reckoned to be "equivalent" to them in rank.  I'm not sure of the current situation, but at one time there were CF officers in assistant deputy minister or associate deputy minister positions.  I don't think there's another country in the world whose armed forces are so closely interlaced with the civil service at the national HQ level.

 

[George Wallace]

http://business.highbeam.com/4954/article-1G1-64731649/vicechief-defence-staff-announces-new-canadian-forces

BGen Patricia Samson was CFPM from July 1, 1997 and retired in 2001.  She was replaced by LCol Dot Cooper upon her promotion to Col.

Those were the days when both the MPs and INT pers were merged into one Branch.  They have since parted ways again, which could explain the BGen to Col differences.

 

[Old Sweat]

Those were the days when both the MPs and INT pers were merged into one Branch.  They have since parted ways again, which could explain the BGen to Col differences.

Not so. There already was a BGen J2 at that time. The CFPM was a separate apointment, as the police and intelligence worlds had split several years before this time. I am reasonably sure the split had taken place sometime in the eighties.

 

[Gunner98]

http://www.vcds-vcemd.forces.gc.ca/cfpm-gpfc/apm-agp/hcmpb-hbpmc-eng.asp

On 29 October 1982, a ceremony was held at the Canadian Forces School of Intelligence and Security (CFSIS) which inaugurated the new Intelligence Branch and rededicated the Security Branch.

Following the recommendations in the report by former Chief Justice Brian Dickson, a new era has been inaugurated for the Military Police Branch with the creation of; the National Investigation Service, the National Counter Intelligence Unit and the reestablishment of the Canadian Forces Provost Marshal.

 

[George Wallace]

Brigadier-General Patricia Samson was originally appointed Canadian Forces Provost Marshall as a Col in 1997, promoted BGen in the same year.  The final split of the INT Branch from the Security Branch happened in 2000 under her "Watch".



In 2000, a further split with the Security Branch occurred, with intelligence training moving from CFSIS at CFB Borden to the newly-formed CFSMI at CFB Kingston. This ended the formal affiliation of the Intelligence Branch with the former CFSIS.  ( http://www.intbranch.org/cold_war.htm )

 

[Edward Campbell]

Brigadier-General Patricia Samson was originally appointed Canadian Forces Provost Marshall as a Col in 1997, promoted BGen in the same year.  The final split of the INT Branch from the Security Branch happened in 2000 under her "Watch".



In 2000, a further split with the Security Branch occurred, with intelligence training moving from CFSIS at CFB Borden to the newly-formed CFSMI at CFB Kingston. This ended the formal affiliation of the Intelligence Branch with the former CFSIS.  ( http://www.intbranch.org/cold_war.htm )

The integration of Intelligence and Security was always a fiction. Putting the (then new) MP cap badge on the Int people and having a new Security Branch could not make silk purses from sows' ears. The Intelligence service was always separate - with its own Director General (and even, now and again, a two star Chief) while the MPs made do with a BGen or Col Provost Marshal.

The attempted merger was based on a wholly unsound appreciation of security, which also involved e.g. a very quickly aborted attempt by the security branch to intrude into COMSEC.

There is, in my view still a gap in DND's security apparatus which the MPs can never fill. Security and policing are different businesses and neither is closely related to intelligence work, per se (although security and counter-intelligence are related disciplines) - which is a problem with which CSIS is trying to wrestle, but that's a topic for another thread.

The machinations of the Security Branch had little direct impact on the intelligence folks - except to make them wince at their cap badge.

 

[tabernac]

RMC has a BGen/Cmdre to oversee less than 900 OCdts. Why? Because the US service academies have a BGen, and it wouldn't be proper for Canada to be represented by a mere LCol at the RMC/West Point Hockey game.

Between the 13 ROTP Sqns + Otter Sqn we have between 950-1050. Sure we could bump Cmdre Truelove to Cdr, but them you'd have to bump DCdts down to Maj, all the division commanders down to Capt, and demote all the Squad bosses to Lt/SLt. You could even completely get rid of the Sqn Comds, and leave the OCdts in charge. The AMS head would need to drop down from Col, as we can't have him higher ranked than the Cmdt. Why stop there? CDA Comd no longer needs to be that of a GOFO does it? It's just a downward spiral from there.

The point here is that the Commandant does more than just babysit the Cadet Wing.

Speaking to staff rank-bloat - it's everywhere; even the RCSU down at Work Point is infested with Capt 10s doing MCpl clerk-work.

10 CIC Capt doing MCpl desk/clerk work? To me that's personnel bloat, not rank bloat.

Agreed (FWIW...) with the people questioning the need for FO/GOs in Commandant positions, especially at RMC. If you can get by with a single BGen as Director-General Reserves and Cadets: enormous, geographically diffuse organizations with tens of thousands of personnel involved (I know, he's in a staff role in relation to both, but still...), what need is there for the CO of RMC to be more than a Col? Perhaps a "high flying" LCol?

I'm unfamiliar with DGRC, however I don't think it's possible to compare DGRC and the RMC Cmdt. They're two different beasts.  The Cmdt has under him the Cadet Wing under the Cadet Wing Commander, the Mil Wing under the DCdts and the Academic Wing under the Principal. Fine, discount the Cadet Wing, but you still have hundreds of profs and associated staff in the Academic Wing (some military, holding rank from Capt to Col) and the Mil Wing, that while smaller in number, still has a LCol, several Maj/LCdr and a plethora of Capts. To drop the Cmdt's rank, you would have to axe too many positions below.

 

[quadrapiper]

10 CIC Capt doing MCpl desk/clerk work? To me that's personnel bloat, not rank bloat.

Capt 10 in the sense of IPC. There's probably half a dozen doing work significantly "below grade," whilst the summer training centres lose officer billets.

As to RMC, makes sense.

Here's a question; might get discussion going: why is there (at the higher levels) civil service involvement in the CF at all? Sure, if there's a specific gig that it makes more sense to hire a specifically-qualified civilian into, fill it with such, but what's the general gain to using civil service pers?

 

[TimBit]

Here's a question; might get discussion going: why is there (at the higher levels) civil service involvement in the CF at all? Sure, if there's a specific gig that it makes more sense to hire a specifically-qualified civilian into, fill it with such, but what's the general gain to using civil service pers?

For discussion, I would suggest:
- Corporate memory (no postings)
- Specialized fields of expertise: can see that in CDI, Policy, Planning
- Traditional civil service fields of expertise: budgetting, policy, liaison with government (PCO, TBS submissions, MCs)
- Cheaper: for any given position civilian personnel are much cheaper than uniformed personel

Now, as has been discussed in other threads, if NDHQ was de-integrated and mil/civ functions better segretated, this would of course be moot.

 

[Journeyman]

Between the 13 ROTP Sqns + Otter Sqn we have between 950-1050. Sure we could bump Cmdre Truelove to Cdr, but them you'd have to bump DCdts down to Maj, all the division commanders down to Capt, and demote all the Squad bosses to Lt/SLt. You could even completely get rid of the Sqn Comds, and leave the OCdts in charge. The AMS head would need to drop down from Col, as we can't have him higher ranked than the Cmdt. Why stop there? CDA Comd no longer needs to be that of a GOFO does it? It's just a downward spiral from there.

I took the number from the RMC website -- for the sake of a 50-150 pers difference, the logic remains.

And it's only considered a "downward spiral" if one has a vested interest in maintaining any particular sacred cow.

 

[dapaterson]

The GOFO question is, more precisely, a GOFOColEX question - the composition of the General, Flag, Colonel and executive public servants in  DND/CF is in dire need of re-examination.

The "Our allies want these ranks" is a canard brought out far to often (Hello, Kingston - in many locations, not just RMC) which, in turn, justifies rank creep and bloat underneath.  I recall chatting with one staff officer who pointed out that the CF has a grand total of one military-required 3* position - DComd NORAD.

However, I won't fight the DS solution there, so my somewhat streamlined Army would have:

LGen - Commander
MGen - Deputy Commander
MGen - Reg F Div Comd
BGen - Reg F Div D Comd
3x BGen - Reg F Bde Comd
BGen - Support group commander (owns the ASUs/ASGs)
BGen - Training systems commander

2x BGen (Res) - Res F div commanders, each div with 3x Res Bdes (commanded by Colonels)

This would eliminate 4x Res BGen positions, reduce the number of CBGs from 10 to 6, and remove the Area construct; the latter two would provide resources to re-invest in other HQs should they need strengthening with their increased span of control, and leave some left over for new initiatives.

 

[OldSolduer]

About 30 years ago we had 110 GOFOs, and we had a much larger CF.

Not only that, but I wonder if the increase in GOFOs mean an increase or "rank creep" down the CoC? What I mean is many years ago a job done by a corporal is now a sergeant's job. Is this going on or is it just my imagination?

 

[Edward Campbell]

OK, my guesstimate –

A bunch of Cmdres/BGens:

• Pacific and Atlantic Fleet commanders (2)
• Regular Army Brigade Group Commanders (4)
• Air Force Group Commanders (Fighter, Transport, Maritime Air, Training) (4)
• Reserve Army Brigade Commanders (4)
• NDHQ Directors General and Miscellaneous/International (40±)
Sub-Total: 55±

Some RAdms/MGens:

• Regional Commanders (Pacific, Western, Eastern, Atlantic) (4)
• Army Division Commanders (2) (No Deputy Commanders)
• Air Division Commanders (2) (No Deputy Commanders)
• SOFCOM Commander (1)
• NDHQ and Miscellaneous/International (25)
Sub-Total: 35±

A few VAdms/LGens:

• DComd NORAD (1)
• CANMILREP NATO (1)
• CDLS(W) (1)
• J3 (COS Joint Staff)  (1)
• CDS (1)

Sub-Total: 5

TOTAL: 95±
But, by law, to be less than 100 until the total paid strength of the CF exceeds 150,000 all ranks.

Notes:
1. Chiefs of Staffs (2 each – one for Ops/Int and one for Admin (Pers) and Log) in Regional Commands and Divisions to be Navy Captains or Colonels who will wield real power. There should never be more than about 150 Captains and Colonels so that promotion to that rank is a near guarantee of entré to the GOFO ranks.

2. Commanders and Lieutenant Colonels to be the first level executive rank: all ‘Directors’ and equivalents to be Cdrs/LCols, never Capts/Cols.

3. Promotion to LCdr/Maj to require some levels of advanced training or examination.

 

[aesop081]

• Air Force Group Commanders (Fighter, Transport, Maritime Air, Training) (4)

You cam eliminte those right away as there are no more of the old groups in the AF. The ghosts of some them continue to haunt some of us though.

 

[Infanteer]

I looked at this while doing a little project with ranks at work - I don't have the list here, but I plotted out the GOFOs to see who was where.  The DSA list isn't entirely accurate as some have retired - I counted 114.

Looked at my data - I have 106 GOFOs.  1 CDS plus (read 3 Star/2 Star/1 Star):

NDHQ:              2/5/8
Army:              1/2/9
Navy:              1/3/5
Air Force:        1/2/7
.COMs:            2/4/6
CMP:                0/3/8
Other L1s:        0/3/7
ISAF:                0/1/6
OutCAN:          3/4/10
ATL:                  0/1/1

Total:                10/28/67

Shuffling a general or cutting a position or two off of something as simple as a ratio of isn't really going to do anything.  Would the CF be better off with 95?  75?  A look at strategic organization will give you an idea of whether we have too many, not enough, or are just right.  Dapaterson points to the right direction with the Col/Executive issue as well - we have 21 L1s, of which all fighting forces belong to 4 (the Army, Navy, Air Force and CANSOFCOM).

 

[Gunner98]

- Cheaper: for any given position civilian personnel are much cheaper than uniformed personel

This is a completely separate issue, until pay equity was instituted over the last decade this was not the case as the CF member was paid far less.  I am not sure that the civilian is still necessarily cheaper when you take into account things like monthly Sick Leave entitlement, overtime, training etc.

I would submit that this is too broad a brush to paint the entire DND with.  Case by case you can make the argument go either way - is it return on investment, continuity of work, innovation, attendance or deliverables/output that you are using as the benchmarks besides what is 'cheaper' in dollars and cents. 

 

[TimBit]

Hey I am NOT saying that the cost/benefit ratio of a civilian is better. But typically, "analysts" positions staffed at the LCol level have a good 15-20K difference with their civilian counterparts in SWE.

 

[Gunner98]

I would disagree unless the position is over-ranked.  Equity is what Treasury Board has been striving for under the The Public Sector Equitable Compensation Act 

"The legislation applies to the Treasury Board of Canada as employer for departments and agencies listed in Schedule I and IV of the Financial Administration Act, to separate agencies as employers for departments and agencies listed in Schedule V of the Financial Administration Act, to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and to the Canadian Forces."


http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/media/nr-cp/2009/0206b-eng.asp

 

[TimBit]

But, plus the military factor. At 100K, that is 8K.

 

[dapaterson]

LCol Analyst: $100K.  Civ Equivalent:  $85K.  Plus pensionable at 25 years.  Plus health care (not provided by the province).  Plus uniforms.  Plus training.  Plus cost moves.

The full departmental cost of a military member is significantly higher than that of an equivalent civilian.


The choice of mil vs civ is not purely financial (nor should it be), but there must be a recognition of the additional costs the choice of military incurs.