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CSS Troops - Less "Deserving"?

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Im going to touch upon a subject here that is widely open to judgement, and that is the treatment of combat arms towards non combat arms soldiers and vice versa. This subject has been on my mind as im continually hearing gripes about other trades within the CF and the hostilities amongst eachother. With that said im gonna try to be objectional here and i mean absolutely no offence to anyone in the CF as we are all soldiers first.

To begin, lets start with the combat arms and there feelings of service and support personal. The reason for there hostility towards them is fairly simple, combat arms soldiers feel as if though there jobs are more important as they carry more risk, and to a certain extent it is tru, wihtout the comabt arms, there would be no military, but the same goes for the service and support, without them us combart arms cannot do our job, we need them or were screwed, and we give them purpose. From my experience one of the reasons of hostility is due to the regular civi folk knowing very little about the military, they assume everyone is infantry and/or drive tanks. due to this the combat arms feel angered that the service and support are stealing there thunder if u will. a combat arms soldier is generaly put under alot more stress and greater danger in deployment, but thats not to say support personal arent in danger or arent under a great threat, it was just a generallity. To jump to the point these combat soldiers feel that the support troops are getting just as much credit as they are for there work, and for a combat arms soldier especially infantrymen the amount of danger in the job is overcome by an immense amount of pride in knowing ur doing the job most others could not or did not want to do, so in a sense it is a smash on there pride, the one thing they have to keep them going in harsh deployments. another reason for the anger towards support is ignorant attitude of SOME suport troops and that they are not in the infantry for example because it is a shit simple job and anyone can do it. Infantry soldiers take great offence to this. Yes anyone can do it assum,ing they have self determination and good drive, but to say u can do there job just as well as they can do is ignorant, u know the basics, however they do it on a daily basis. just as they learn to survive in desolate climates, the support learn how to fix there trucks in desolate places. both trades can do the same job, but both have there area of expertise.

Now since ive brought out the combat arms(mainly infantry) gripes about the support troops, ill aruge the other side. the support troops feel angered at the childish attitude of the comabt arms. they feel we are all soldiers first and all are taught infantry tactics and therefore are equal. we all wear the uniform and al deserve the respect that goes with it. Additionally they dislike the attitude of the combat arms soldiers who have there attitudes for the reasons above. and the combat arms types have been known to grossly be childish about those reaons and treating the support as second class soldiers.

To sum up, it comes down to the old 5 grade playground type scenario. both groups angry at eachother because they say and do things behind eachothers backs. i think what the CF needs amongst its members is more respect. THe infatry and combat types need to realise, without the cook to cook them a meal, without the trucker to drive them to there patrol area, without the weapons and supply techs to get them there equipment and fix there weapons, and without the logistics to pay our salary and organize the daily operation of the CF, those comabt types are ineffective and irrelevent. and at the same time the combat arms is the purpose of the army and the support is there to support the combat arms. Everyone in uniform is a soldier, and everyone sacrafices so much of there life for our beautiful country, and all deserve a great amount of respect, but i belive the first step towards greater harmony is greater respect amongst ourselves.

any thoughts?
 
loyaleddie87 said:
any thoughts?

Yes !

If you wanted to start a gong show, this will do it.

My bet is 3 pages before this gets locked  ::)
 
Wow!  Just read your thread here.  Good questions you ask.  Where I work we are lucky we get to work with all branches of the CF on deployed ops.  What I can tell you is that these "neanderthal" views you mention are from people who have no appreciation, or clue, of how our CF works period .....

Bottom line.  One Mission. One Team.
 
loyaleddie87 said:
Now since ive brought out the combat arms(mainly infantry) gripes about the support troops, ill aruge the other side. the support troops feel angered at the childish attitude of the comabt arms. they feel we are all soldiers first and all are taught infantry tactics and therefore are equal. we all wear the uniform and al deserve the respect that goes with it. Additionally they dislike the attitude of the combat arms soldiers who have there attitudes for the reasons above. and the combat arms types have been known to grossly be childish about those reaons and treating the support as second class soldiers.

I would hardly classify BMQ and SQ as grounds to say CSS have undergone infantry training. Theres far more to the Infantry than just a Section attack, and a week in a trench. Time and time again, I've listened to highers refer to the "Infantards" as nothing more than the dumb mans trade full of glorified SQ'ers, which is obviously not the case.

Thats similar to an Infanteer with MLVW on his 404's, claiming he's just as qualified or familiar with CSS work as they would be with the infantry.

Most trades rib eachother, its the nature of the beast and wont be changed. Im not so sure i want it to either...

Anyone can read the bathroom walls in Meaford and get a good feel about how the Infantry feel towards the Armoured, but we dont complain, we just dish it back and have a healthy sense of "compitition" (for lack of a better word).
 
There is a thread already running (4 pages) that should answer most of your doubts as to the animosity between the Cbt Arms and the "Purple Trades". I really don't want to get another going that amounts to the same thing, and just results in the same shit slinging.

CSS Troops - Less "Deserving"?


aesop081 said:
Yes !

If you wanted to start a gong show, this will do it.

My bet is 3 pages before this gets locked  ::)

Sorry, you lose. ;)

OK. This has been merged. Play nice or it get locked again.
 
BOY talk about about flogging a dead horse. This argument has been going on for as long as I can remember. Everyone in every trade has their arguments and beliefs and that will never change.

Is one better than the other? I think not..... just the people doing the job. Can one person do it all, NO! that is why we have "THE TEAM" Like hockey, some people think that one position is more important than another but without everyone working you can not win the game. Ergo it takes us all working toward the greater good to make us the military that we are...... mission orientated and goal minded.

If people want to keep up their petty arguments about who is better or does what or who does not do what, they have some serious issues to contend with. If all that was required was for everyone to be an infantier or tanker or gunner then we would not have the other trades.

Do the CSS train to defend or advance yes but not to the degree that the pointy enders do and with reason. Can they pick up a weapon and defend themselves and fellow soldiers the answer is YES.

Will this argument ever been settled? I think not because we do not put people in others positions to show what it is like.

On missions, is anyone really more secure than the next? CSS do convoys, MRT duties, medical support, cook and are put in harm way while doing so. I have experienced this and have been bumped twice while doing it. Yet I know many people who have done numerous patrols and never had anything happen. So let get away from all the he says, she says crap and look at the big picture.
 
CSS Troops are no less deserving of anything than their combat arms brethren. I am a crewman.  I NEED a mechanic to fix my Coyote when it breaks, I NEED FCS to fix my surveillance equipment and the numerous other components of a Coyote that require their skill, I NEED a weapons tech to repair my 25mm, MG's and pers weapon, I NEED a SigOp because nobody but a SigOp understands TCCCS, I NEED a medic to heal & patch me up, I NEED a Supply Tech to kit me out........... The list goes on and on.  Tick any of these CSS pers off and they can f@!* you over twice from sunday when you need them.  They are just as integral and necessary as any combat troop.  Thank you all for your expertise & help, we couldn't function without you.
 
Very well said, Reccecrewman.  I had the good fortune to command CSS soldiers for a year, and count it as one of the most rewarding experiences I've had in my career.  Professional to a fault, and given my intent, they would work wonders in keeping the battalion on its feet.  I have no lack of admiration for my CSS colleagues.
 
Shut up and give me my bullets so i can get back to killin like a real soldier!!!! :salute:
 
gatorjumper said:
Shut up and give me my bullets so i can get back to killin like a real soldier!!!! :salute:

GrowUp.gif


Regards
 
i have a very large fig. 11 body count thank you very much! :threat:  And by the way Franko I did grow up, thats why i'm out of the army! ;)
 
  Thanks Reccecrewman, not many Cbt arms types fully support "US" support types.  I have done my time in the field, albeit I'll never claim to be a cbt arm type, I've dug tenches and slogged along with the best of them. Cammed up, played silly bugger and pepper potted thru the trees.  For the record; the first Canadian Ground Troops into Kuwiat City the day after the Iragi's left were.....1 Canadian Field Hospital CSS.  Truckers and Supply techs to replenish the Embassy water and rations.  I was Scudded in Riyadh and had an IED go off behind me targeted on a US convoy.  Was I deserving of my GK medal?  I think so.
  And obviously, gatorjumper packed his own chutes, because I believe Supply techs (para riggers) do that. Or ever had to go to the UMS or MIR to visit the Medics.  CSS and regular base support is there to Support the operations of the CF.  Who fuels the planes that the jumpers jump out of? 
  Just my two cents worth to qualm all those arrogant Cbt arms types who think that war and the rest of the world revolves around them. 
  If you use it, a supply tech packed it, a traffic tech loaded it and a truck brought it.  Sorry for leaving out the RMS types, but I do like getting my pay.
  Servitium Nulli Secundus.
 
From my favorite Wizard of Id:

Sir Rodney: Jones, I’m taking you out of the ranks and making you a clerk.

Soldier: But sir, I was born to battle!

Sir Rodney: You’ve never been in Administration, have you?
 
I'd like to re-iterate on a couple of points that have been brought up here.

As for Johnny the Reserve infanteer, who maintains both a civilian skillset and a high standard of soldier skills, he does far more "soldiering" than your average CSS does.

As for Infanteers being able to fill CSS positions?  Given some time in the field, working as an infanteer, I'm sure that most CSS troops could get themselves up to snuffl

If our leadership took PT as seriously as the Cbt Arms leadership does, you can bet you'd see less fat wogs around.

Its very difficult to maintain proper soldiering skills by doing a BFT once a year, and doing MLOC once a year.  I work in Wainwright Base Supply, so in my part of the world, the CSS never sees the field.  We can't exactly do a full refresher course every year and follow it with a confirmation ex.  I'm not sure what the solution to the problem is, but I think that these are the reasons for the problem.

Just a lowly mo Cpl on a year-long contract in Wainwright.
 
Milhouser911 said:
As for Johnny the Reserve infanteer, who maintains both a civilian skillset and a high standard of soldier skills, he does far more "soldiering" than your average CSS does.

How is he maintaining a "high standard" of soldier skills vs someone who is a soldier every day? Who measured this standard?

We have cooks/drivers/medics etc. attached to us on a regular basis who posess decent field skills, this being more a matter of personal pride and interest than a unit driven result.

I would not consider Wx stores to be indicative of the entire CSS world in this respect.
 
Don't forget that truckers in Afghanistan leave the wire everyday on 15+ hour convoys driving through ambush alley and choke points min twice to deliver goods to the battle group. They are also the echelon for the combat teams which keeps them fighting, happy with the mail and clean laundry.
The Battle Group goes looking for Taliban. The Taliban looks for us.
 
trucker00 said:
Don't forget that truckers in Afghanistan leave the wire everyday on 15+ hour convoys driving through ambush alley and choke points min twice to deliver goods to the battle group. They are also the echelon for the combat teams which keeps them fighting, happy with the mail and clean laundry.
The Battle Group goes looking for Taliban. The Taliban looks for us.

True to that. Kill us... kill the lifeblood of the army.
 
Well here is a good topic on the said subject, CFPSA civilian pers are being awarded the SWASM along with TAV'S who were there for Roto 2 Aug - Feb 06 aka TFK 03-06 Now myself serving in afghanistan at this time believe I also have the right to be awarded the medal even thou the powers that be said we were going to get it....  Meanwhile just like the army HURRY UP AND WAIT...... I am a Support trade who was out in the FOB's and also a major part of the OP plus being on many of the convoys I was put in harms way.... I was also part of a fire fight now you tell me I do not deserve this medal..... LOOK AT PAST TOURS lets see Yugo you would get the former yugo medal and the peace keepers medal Now the moment of truth is it not armed conflict that my roto was part of was my roto not the hardest hit....... Get your facts straight
 
fse soldier said:
Well here is a good topic on the said subject, CFPSA civilian pers are being awarded the SWASM along with TAV'S who were there for Roto 2 Aug - Feb 06 aka TFK 03-06 Now myself serving in afghanistan at this time believe I also have the right to be awarded the medal even thou the powers that be said we were going to get it....  Meanwhile just like the army HURRY UP AND WAIT...... I am a Support trade who was out in the FOB's and also a major part of the OP plus being on many of the convoys I was put in harms way.... I was also part of a fire fight now you tell me I do not deserve this medal..... LOOK AT PAST TOURS lets see Yugo you would get the former yugo medal and the peace keepers medal Now the moment of truth is it not armed conflict that my roto was part of was my roto not the hardest hit....... Get your facts straight

Are you professing to tell me that you weren't presented a medal in recognition of your tour?? I'm sure that you were. Case closed.

Or is it ... that you just want the other one instead ..  or that you want two (the GCS and a SWASM -- that's kinda greedy now isn't it??)?

 
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