Cpl Wilcox court martial - Sydney NS

[Staff Weenie]

helpup - I believe you may well be right in the '2 second' time given by the defendant resulting from a rehearsal he conducted to bolster his defence.

I also accept that Gunfighter training can, through repetitive training to the point of creating 'muscle memory', produce a very fast reaction time. But I wonder exactly how much practice would be required to form that skill, and does the CF routinely provide it and maintain it, or did he have some sort of equivalent training from the civilian world?

I just don’t buy his line though. As part of the Role 3 staff, it wasn’t uncommon for me to hear weapons from all contributing nations being cocked to clear outside of the trauma bay entrance. It never caused me, or anybody around me to jump and draw our pistols (though I was always concerned about the ANA’s and ANP’s legendary weapons ‘mishandling’ skills). And, having had ROE’s beaten into my overly thick skull, and suffering from an ongoing paranoia as to whether my weapon was always safe and secure wherever I went on KAF, I just don’t buy his story.

Since I don't believe there were any direct witnesses, we are left to determine the most probable causes of the event. In this case, outright probability seems to be going against the defendant.

 

[Fusaki]

I just don’t buy his line though. As part of the Role 3 staff, it wasn’t uncommon for me to hear weapons from all contributing nations being cocked to clear outside of the trauma bay entrance. It never caused me, or anybody around me to jump and draw our pistols (though I was always concerned about the ANA’s and ANP’s legendary weapons ‘mishandling’ skills). And, having had ROE’s beaten into my overly thick skull, and suffering from an ongoing paranoia as to whether my weapon was always safe and secure wherever I went on KAF, I just don’t buy his story.

This seems to be the biggest hole in the story.

Wilcox would have probably heard the sound of a pistol being cocked 20 times a day:  You put a round in the chamber when you start your shift, clear it when you're done, clear it again before cleaning, then a few more times for the a function test.  Presumably, every army guy around him would be doing the same thing.

But this time it triggers some sort of stress-induced hypervigilant response?  What traumatic event does his subconscious link with the sound of a cocking pistol?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

But this time it triggers some sort of stress-induced hypervigilant response?  What traumatic event does his subconscious link with the sound of a cocking pistol?

Perhaps that is the defence he's setting up for appeal?

 

[Kat Stevens]

Pretty much what I said four pages back.

 

[Haggis]

But this time it triggers some sort of stress-induced hypervigilant response?  What traumatic event does his subconscious link with the sound of a cocking pistol?

Perhaps that is the defence he's setting up for appeal?

Perhaps his lawyer is lurking on this thread looking for "expert opinion" from our membership to build his case?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Perhaps his lawyer is lurking on this thread looking for "expert opinion" from our membership to build his case?

Our opinion wouldn't make any difference anyway. If he hasn't got his ducks in a row by now, he's no lawyer. He wouldn't have gone to trial if he hadn't been ready.

 

[Fusaki]

But this time it triggers some sort of stress-induced hypervigilant response?  What traumatic event does his subconscious link with the sound of a cocking pistol?

Perhaps that is the defence he's setting up for appeal?

I actually meant that bold part to be taken as a rhetorical question.  I don't think there is a subconscious link with the sound of a cocking pistol.

I'm no psychologist, but I am a Lt. Col. Dave Grossman fan.  I've read both On Killing and On Combat, and I had the privilege of sitting in on his lectures to the 3RCR BG back at Y-101 last year.

I think what Wilcox may be setting up defense based on Combat Stress Reaction by claiming that the shooting was an Exaggerated Startle Response as mentioned in the Diagnostic Criteria for Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (DSM-IV, American Psychiatric Assn.)

In On Combat Grossman tells the story of a soldier who's mind and body had been conditioned for combat:  At the sound of gunshots his sympathetic nervous system kicked into high gear.  We're talking about the instant adrenaline rush, the frantic heartrate, distortions of space and time, and most importantly the switch to fight or flight autopilot.  I'm sure there are many on this forum who know exactly what I'm talking about.  In Grossman's story, this survival mechanism that had kept the soldier alive overseas carried over to his life back stateside: While attending a swim meet the starter's pistol shot triggered same fight or flight response.  Despite the fact that rationally the soldier knew he was safe, his subconscious was treating the swimming competition like an ambush.

So how do you go about overcoming these episodes?  Grossman talks about disassociating the stimulus with the emotion.  One way (of many) would be to get back on the rifle range.  The idea is to get used to the sound of gunfire without the threat of someone trying to kill you.  Re-associate the sound of gunshots the training mindset of becoming a better marksman.  Become comfortable on the range again by focusing on your marksmanship principles.  Disassociate the stimulus from the traumatic event.

A personal story:  On post deployment leave from TF 3-06 I happened on Scott Kesterson's YouTube videos of the 1PPCLI guys of TF Orion.  As a LAV Gunner overseas, hearing the distinctive 3 round Thump, Thump, Thump of the LAVs on YouTube had a very distinct effect on me: my heart started racing and I could feel the adrenaline coursing through my body.  I looked over at my buddy and said "Shit man, look at me! the sound brings me right back!" So what did I do?  I had just read On Combat, so I basically just watched the YouTube videos untill they got boring.  Eventually the stimulus (LAVs firing) were disassociated with the response (fight or flight).

I hope that what I've said above will put into context the reason I'm skeptical of Wilcox's story.  The sound of a cocking pistol is just so mundane that I don't see how it could trigger an Exaggerated Startle Response.  Because he would have heard it so often in situations that were not so emotionally charged, I don't see how that sound could have triggered his fight or flight reaction.  Where did he hear a pistol racking that it would have burned such a deep response into his mind?  It would had to have happened very recently, or else the stimulus would have been quickly disassociated by sound in day to day life in KAF.

I don't want to come off as a know it all.  I'm a grunt, not a doctor.  But that's what I got for .02, based on what I've read and a bit of personal experience.

 

[dangerboy]

Video: Sgt. Nathan Crosby assembles 9-mm pistol

http://www.capebretonpost.com/index.cfm?main=broadcast&bcid=10628

SYDNEY — The defence in the court martial of Cpl. Matthew Wilcox hammered away at the lack of leadership and credibility of key witnesses during its closing address to the four-member military panel, Tuesday.
Two witnesses in particular, Sgt. Brad Joyce and Sgt. Nathan Crosby, both superiors to Wilcox, were attacked for their “cavalier” attitude toward weapon safety.
Wilcox is charged with manslaughter, criminal negligence causing death and negligent performance of a duty in the shooting death of Cpl. Kevin Megeney in March 2007.
In one video shown to the military panel during testimony early in the trial, Crosby is on camera holding a Browning 9-mm pistol to the head of Joyce while on pre-deployment exercises in Wainwright, Alta. in October 2006. He pulls the pistol’s trigger several times as a voice off-camera is heard saying, “you guys are getting out of hand with these pistols.”
In the second video clip, which was obtained by the Cape Breton Post, Crosby assembles a 9-mm pistol and then points and pulls the trigger at the cameraman. The barrel of the gun is pointed toward Megeney, the person holding the video camera.
It was also recorded while the reservists were on training exercises at CFB Wainwright.
While on the stand earlier this month testifying for the prosecution, Crosby acknowledged his behaviour was out of line with the Canadian military’s standard operating procedures.
“You point the gun directly at the cameraman and you pull the trigger,” defence lawyer Maj. Stephen Turner said to Crosby.
However, Crosby said he did no wrong because he had “proven it safe” by ensuring the pistol’s chamber and magazine were empty

The video is in the article.

 

[PMedMoe]

How many times have you done a weapons training class and had the instructor in front of the class with weapons aimed at them?

Wilcox's lawyer is just trying to point the blame elsewhere.

The defence in the court martial of Cpl. Matthew Wilcox hammered away at the lack of leadership and credibility of key witnesses

 

[the 48th regulator]

How many times have you done a weapons training class and had the instructor in front of the class with weapons aimed at them?

Wilcox's lawyer is just trying to point the blame elsewhere.

Or he is presenting the fact, that weapons handling was lackadaisical, which created an environment to have wilcox keep a round up the spout.  A brilliant build up,to further prove that Wilcox was "Just doing what he trained to do".

As for weapons lectures, had I been present, I would have fired the instructors ass.  When doing weapons lectures, you right off the bat set the safe areas to aim the weapon. Left , right, or to the front.  The instructor then never enters the area in front of the students with their weapons.  He observes from the side or behind.

It builds a confidence, and respect for the weapon in the troops,a s this is also the method you will be monitored on a range.

Unless the training has changed....

dileas

tess

 

[PMedMoe]

Tess, I agree about the weapons training.  I could never figure it out, either.

 

[the 48th regulator]

I Hear ya Moe,

But I believe that is what the defence is doing too.  Even if they don't buy the fact that Wilcox fired in self defence, and want to believe it was a game of quick draw,  the defence is not necessarily discrediting the witnesses.  What they are actually doing is placing the blame on them, in that they created the environment, which lead to the exact circumstances.


Again, turning the Accused into a victim, as much as the deceased. 

 

[dapaterson]

In this instance, the poor leadership will be introduced as a mitigating factor in sentencing (assuming a guilty verdict).  To me, the videos show some clear failures of leadership which may have been contributory to a climate of lax, unsafe weapons handling.

The follow-on question:  Will the Sgts whose horseplay was caught on camera be facign charges as well - disobeying orders on weapons handling, and the good old fashioned 129?

 

[Kat Stevens]

"Lead by example" has it's limits.  Yes there is some piss poor judgement being exercised, but at the end of the day,  Wilcox made a conscious choice to be an idiot in his handling drills, nobody forced it on him.

 

[Engineer79]

I don't understand why everyone is against Wilcox. Lets assume for a minute, that he and his friend were indeed playing a game of "draw". In my opinion, they are both responsible for what happened to the victim. But putting that aside, i am sure, if anyone of you were playing a game of "draw", and your friend accidentally shot you, and you lie by his side dying, what would you say to him "i hope you go to jail" or "just twist the truth because you are a good man and what happened as an accident shouldn't ruin your entire life"?

They were playing a game, things went wrong, should he take a manslaughter blame? Put yourselves in his shoes.

 

[PMedMoe]

They were playing a game, things went wrong, should he take a manslaughter blame?

So, if a "street racer" doing 140 km/h in an 80 zone, hits another car and kills the driver, he shouldn't be charged with manslaughter?  After all, he was just playing a "game" and things went wrong.  :

They were playing a "game" with either loaded or improperly cleared weapons in a very dangerous area where your weapons status is of utmost importance.

 

[Engineer79]

So, if a "street racer" doing 140 km/h in an 80 zone, hits another car and kills the driver, he shouldn't be charged with manslaughter?  After all, he was just playing a "game" and things went wrong.  :

They were playing a "game" with either loaded or improperly cleared weapons in a very dangerous area where your weapons status is of utmost importance.

Hmm, yea you make a very good point. It still suprizes me that everyone here is putting the blame just on Wilcox. Nevertheless, what you said makes complete sense.

 

[dapaterson]

I don't understand why everyone is against Wilcox. Lets assume for a minute, that he and his friend were indeed playing a game of "draw". In my opinion, they are both responsible for what happened to the victim. But putting that aside, i am sure, if anyone of you were playing a game of "draw", and your friend accidentally shot you, and you lie by his side dying, what would you say to him "i hope you go to jail" or "just twist the truth because you are a good man and what happened as an accident shouldn't ruin your entire life"?

They were playing a game, things went wrong, should he take a manslaughter blame? Put yourselves in his shoes.

Yes.  Manslaughter is "Did something stupid and someone died - and any idiot could have seen it coming".

Pointing a weapon at another solider and pulling the trigger is reckless, foolish and dangerous, regardless of the context.  Remember - someone died because a stupid person did a stupid thing.  Punishment for such an act should deter others from being equally stupid.

The justice system isn't only about finding guilt and punishing the guilty.  Particularly in a military context, it's about putting the fear of G-d into others to keep them from repeating the same mistakes.

(Edit - Spelling)

 

[PMedMoe]

It still suprizes me that everyone here is putting the blame just on Wilcox.

I think what you're seeing is the reaction to the change in his story:  It was a "reaction" vs. We were playing quick draw.

Yes, I'm sure there are others that share in the blame, considering the reckless way weapons were handled by higher ranks, but in the end, it was Cpl Wilcox who pulled the trigger.  As noted by dapaterson, will there be charges for the others?  I certainly hope so.

 

[George Wallace]

I don't understand why everyone is against Wilcox. Lets assume for a minute, that he and his friend were indeed playing a game of "draw". In my opinion, they are both responsible for what happened to the victim. But putting that aside, i am sure, if anyone of you were playing a game of "draw", and your friend accidentally shot you, and you lie by his side dying, what would you say to him "i hope you go to jail" or "just twist the truth because you are a good man and what happened as an accident shouldn't ruin your entire life"?

They were playing a game, things went wrong, should he take a manslaughter blame? Put yourselves in his shoes.

Engineer79

You obviously do not realize the seriousness of this matter and the serious breaches that were made in several different matters, including Security, Wpns handling, Training, Operation Procedures, etc.  This is a very serious matter and one that has to be dealt with.  Your trivialization shows a total lack of knowledge on these matters.

If you do join the CF, you will be educated and become much more aware of how serious this matter is.