Cover me, I'm going in

[scoutfinch]

Pte Pukepail;

Part of the reason you are receiving a rather caustic reception here is that you are voicing opinions that are not based on facts.  When people then counter your poorly thought out opinions with reasoned factual arguments, you then profess to want to only look at half the facts and that your opinion should be considered meritorious solely because it is your opinion.

Sorry but that is not how it works here.  Here, you earn your bones.  You can not come here expressing half-baked opinions and expect for them to be respected just because it is your opinion.  Not gonna happen.

 

[scoutfinch]

Look, if you want everyone's opinions to be streamlined, then fine, I'll shut up and stop contributing my thoughts on subjects.  Personally, I'm not corrupted by articles and doctrine and all these other things which obviously are important, but I'm speaking purely from a independant standpoint.  Okay, maybe its wrong, maybe I'm in the dark, but an opinion is an opinion.  You can't expect EVERYONE to believe the exact same thing the rest of you guys do.  You say something is reactive, well maybe it is offcially, but maybe I as a bloody individual see it another way. Maybe I think Bush was wrong about this or that, so I state my opinion based on that.  Guys, come on, you've got to be more forgiving when someone is stating little more than an opinion.  So it contradicts your own, or the 'general consensus'.  We weren't given free will without the ability to use it.

In any case, if all I can expect is a badgering for every single thing I post, I'll stick with the less relevant conversations then.

Look at my Johnny... the only one in step. 

Did you say you were joining the infantry???

 

[career_radio-checker]

Any luck with your debate there mtnbikes?

I was thinking, if you, or any Afghanistan vets, were invited to do a presentation at a local highschool about Afghanistan would you be willing or able to do it?
You wouldn't have to dress up in uniform, it's not a recruiting campaign I'm sugesting, just go to classroom in civies and talk to the students about your experiences.

 

[warrickdll]

...I think that is a bit of a straw man.  Whether the Taliban was recognized as the government of Afghanistan  by other nations, it was the defacto governing body in Afghanistan.  It had been recognized by two Islamic regional governments and members of the Taliban were invited for discussion to the Whitehouse, all while the American government proclaimed that they weren't recognizing the Taliban as the government.  Even then, we all knew that the Whitehouse wasn't officially recognizing them for political expediency but intended to deal with them as if they were the government so as to pave the way for a possible later recognition.

Agreed... Mostly.

But when problems come out of states such as Taliban Afghanistan or Somalia there are few legitimate ways to grieve the situation. And I believe the threshold for Self-Defence is much lower.

If you are stating that, regardless of the nature of the Afghanistan government at the time, the US was always eligible to invade Afghanistan, then I agree.

 

[scoutfinch]

I suspected we were on the same page just reading different paragraphs.

 

[Danjanou]

I suspected we were on the same page just reading different paragraphs.

Unlike someone else here who's in a whole different library. :

 

[warrickdll]

...I noticed a few posters plastered on walls and lightpoles inviting the students to an NDP supported rally to get our troops out of Afghanistan. ...

...As the number of casualties continue to mount, I think it is important that we take the cause to the ones trying to stop our deployment, with inaccurate facts, biased perceptions and spurious assumptions.  Some of the sites I perused seem to be be unlikely to give me the light of day.  I have not seen a lot of anti-war or individuals questioning our deployment on this site, although there has been a few brave ones.  I was also very proud of the amount of constructive and logical responses to their queries from the military and regular forum members. ...

The NDP seems to be doing a few things well (from their perspective) when it comes to getting their message out in the news:

- Convincing some people that every Canadian casualty is a tactical defeat proving the invincibility of the hapless, peace-loving, Afghan farmer (AKA the Taliban).

- Getting news organizations to ignore the UN legitimacy and support of the NATO mission in Afghanistan (it is almost never mentioned).

- Portraying our support of the government of Afghanistan as Warmongering, while their open calls to invade the sovereign nation of Sudan are somehow referred to as Peacekeeping.

- Not having the enemy's use of suicide bombers seen as a desperate measure by the Taliban (oops... I mean the hapless, peace-loving, Afghan farmers)



Here in the Land of Civilians I do notice one thing though: sure, there is the usual minority of left wing nutbars, disaffected ageing ex-communists, and other self-declared Victims of Society, but there are also otherwise normal people who just don't trust anything the US does.

I'm not talking about raving anti-Americans - I'm talking about everyday citizens that just have a deep-seated distrust of the US government. They are much like the pragmatic majority, and would never associate themselves with the reactionary Left, but they are easily swayed into being overly cautious by the caterwauling of the lunatic fringe.

I have no remedy for this, but I would canadianize any arguments as much as possible.

I suspected we were on the same page just reading different paragraphs.

 

[TCBF]

"Part of the reason you are receiving a rather caustic reception here is that you are voicing opinions that are not based on facts."

- Nothing wrong with that at all.  Watch question period.  Few opinions are based on facts, or so it would appear.  This would be an even more boring site if we all agreed with one another.  If we disagree with the guy - fine.  Start typing.

Tom

 

[riot]

Hey guys, I just switched to the reserves after a while in and am in school here in BC. There is a lot of anti-war sentiment here on campus, posters and the like (that seem to keep disappearing - odd...). I live in Rez here and am always having people from all walks over at my place, people from all over the world with all kinds of views. When they find out that I'm in the army, some can't believe it because I'm a pretty left leaning guy. Before I talk, I listen to what they have to say, who knows, they might have a valid point. I try to read as much as possible from all sides, one so that one; I can be as informed as possible, two; I can expect what the opposition side will argue, and three; with an open mind in case I find something worth changing/modifying my views. The best way to overcome the anti-war stance of most students is just to talk to them. These people have just started school and are developing their own views for the first time. What they are being fed is a constant stream of "revolutionary" peace propaganda. There is no alternate view here on campus. There have been numerous BBQ's and gatherings on campus and the "pull out now" table is always present. What IS lacking are competent people there supporting the role Canadian troops are playing in Afghanistan now. We as a military are losing the hearts and minds of our own students because of this. When I have discussions at my place, they are always interesting and people are always amazed at what I have to say on the subject, maybe because this is the first time they are considering it. I have "turned" a lot of people, or at least have them asking hard questions of the people slandering the mission. I even went so far as to attend a rally/forum with a female Canadian international lawyer who admitted to compiling evidence to try Canadian soldiers as basically war criminals for contravening article 51 by taking on combat operations in the south. (apparently peacekeepers cannot defend themselves pro-actively) I asked a lot of hard questions, most of which were either waffled out of or ignored right out, but I could see just from the questions I was asking and her noticeable reaction to them that the audience was also questioning.  LONG POST SHORT; education, education, education, if it will work for the Afghans, it will work for Canadians. Just remember, COMPETENT discussion is the only way to influence them. We cannot be the war-mongering brutes they make us out to be. (oh, and make sure to tell them we're not in Iraq, they seem to think we are for the most part...maybe show them a world map)

PEACE!

 

[canadianblue]

Great to hear Riot, I find the same thing works when people ask me about the military. Their aren't any conservative campus organizations where your doing school at?

 

[TCBF]

"I even went so far as to attend a rally/forum with a female Canadian international lawyer who admitted to compiling evidence to try Canadian soldiers as basically war criminals for contravening article 51 by taking on combat operations in the south. (apparently peacekeepers cannot defend themselves pro-actively)"

- I bet she would be somewhat surprised to learn that, in 1978 - 1979, the mission statement we Blue Beret "Peacekeeper's" in  Nicosia, Cyprus, received for Operation Locksmith was "Shoot To Kill anyone who threatens the lives of the negotiators."

- She should also have a long talk with her Law School professors for allowing her to sleep through the self-defence provisions in classes on the Revised Statutes Of Canada.  The Right to Self Defence we have as citizens allow us - just like any other Canadian in Canada - to use force up to and including lethal force in self defence.

And yes, that definitely DOES include with guns - both for us and civilians.

Tom

 

[Cardstonkid]

Being a graduate from a liberal arts program at a Canadian university I can well sympathize with the comments made on this thread about the anti-military left of centre politics in Academia. Remember though the University life is not representative of real Canadian life. Most come out of this left-wing soft-headed view point as they get older.

Some Prof's, and the eternal students never change., but for most the first real job and pay stub revealing their actual take home pay vs. their income starts to make them think about the merits of Big Government. When they marry, buy a house and have kids they start to think about things like security and safety. Then they find themselves  being a little more appreciative of the Police and the Armed Forces. To their surprise they find themselves viewing the world in a much different light than they did in University.

I agree with those that have commented that the only course of action against the anti-military types is to provide a reasoned fact-based debate. This disarms those that are convinced of the military stereotype, and it persuades those who might actually have an open mind. Those who are not listening won't be convinced no matter how inspired the oratory, nor how rooted in facts you are, so there's is no point worrying about them.

 

[medaid]

Look, if you want everyone's opinions to be streamlined, then fine, I'll shut up and stop contributing my thoughts on subjects.  Personally, I'm not corrupted by articles and doctrine and all these other things which obviously are important, but I'm speaking purely from a independant standpoint.  Okay, maybe its wrong, maybe I'm in the dark, but an opinion is an opinion.  You can't expect EVERYONE to believe the exact same thing the rest of you guys do.  You say something is reactive, well maybe it is offcially, but maybe I as a bloody individual see it another way.  Maybe I think Bush was wrong about this or that, so I state my opinion based on that.  Guys, come on, you've got to be more forgiving when someone is stating little more than an opinion.  So it contradicts your own, or the 'general consensus'.  We weren't given free will without the ability to use it.

In any case, if all I can expect is a badgering for every single thing I post, I'll stick with the less relevant conversations then.

Funny that Pte.Pukepail....how can you remain independent and ignore doctrine and article if you're in the Forces? Unless you're not? Maybe you should fill out your profile....just a thought.

 

[mtnbikes]

Any luck with your debate there mtnbikes?

I was thinking, if you, or any Afghanistan vets, were invited to do a presentation at a local highschool about Afghanistan would you be willing or able to do it?
You wouldn't have to dress up in uniform, it's not a recruiting campaign I'm sugesting, just go to classroom in civies and talk to the students about your experiences.

Well,

Thanks Career-Radio-Checker.  Following my first tour, I went to my daughter's high school and talk about my experience, and received very positive feedback from both students and staff.  Mind you that was in Edmonton, where the population is far more supportive of the the military than say, Ottawa ?  The Universities are the target of the current opinion battle (hey the NDP knows that well..).  That being said, the CF is doing it's best to protray our message to the public in a positive light, although this is difficult while remaining apolitical.  Thin ice this issue is becoming.  Looks like my thread has taken a life of it's own.  Lots of interesting discussion generated here.  That being said I am starting to contemplate to attend the "get our troops out of Afghanistan" rally on the 28th, just to try (and I mean try within the realm of the reasonable) to bring our point of view.  I cannot just let my daughter go to the lions, although I suspect that she would visit verbal violence to a few before she just loses it and leaves.  Anyone else interested ?

 

[riot]

That being said I am starting to contemplate to attend the "get our troops out of Afghanistan" rally on the 28th, just to try (and I mean try within the realm of the reasonable) to bring our point of view.  I cannot just let my daughter go to the lions, although I suspect that she would visit verbal violence to a few before she just loses it and leaves.  Anyone else interested ?

Good show man, I'd reccommend it, I was blown away by what was said at the rallies I went to. You may even have a chance to get some hard questions asked. I would recommend as much recent info that you can get your hands on, and take a look at the oppsition side to prepare for what they wil throw out at you. I guess that's why we're there though, eh?

 

[McG]

Thanks MCG.  However, Ruxted seems to be on our side.  What I'm looking for (sorry if I was not clear) would be sites that have both sides of the issue and input from both groups.

Try this one: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061028.wprotest28/CommentStory/Afghanistan/home