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Cosmic impact found on ancient city

This is FJAG's fault again. He causes me to wander. ;)

Independence Fjord on Greenland is at the same latitude as Alert - 82N

2400 BC a group of Eskimo/Inuit/Paleo-Eskimo moved NORTH and took up residence there. At 82N. They stayed there for 1400 years.

en.wikipedia.org

Independence I culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Those people shared common digestive systems with their dogs and the polar bears. They adapted to the same diet as the polar bears. And they chased the same prey.

www.sciencedaily.com

Sled dogs are closely related to 9,500-year-old 'ancient dog'

Sled dogs are much older and have adapted to Arctic conditions much earlier than previously thought. Researchers show that ancestors of modern sled dogs have worked and lived with humans for over 9,500 years.
www.sciencedaily.com

So when the world warmed up those people didn't move south. They headed north following the polar bears looking for seals, whales and muktuk. They were barred from the south by the barren lands and had would have suffered indigestion if fed wheat, coconuts or milk.

Why do I bring this up? Because we tend to think that because we can't live on top of the ice then no one can live on top of the ice. So when Canada was buried 3 km deep in ice we tend to accept that we wouldn't find any traces of life because we wouldn't live there. We tend to ignore the fact that when the ice melted it carried chunks of mountains from Baffin Island to Scotland. The odds are that arrowheads and atlatls lost on the ice found themselves almost anywhere but where the ice was.

There have been people living on the ice, all around the world, as far south as the California-Oregon border, for the duration of the last ice age.

And they could take advantage of the Big Circle route. From 45N to 90N is 2700 NM. From Independence Fjord it is only 400 NM to the Pole.

Modern Iditarod teams can sustain 1000 miles a week.

www.adn.com

How can Iditarod dogs run so fast for so long? Scientists probe superdogs

Iditarod dogs are ultramarathoners, with the fastest among them running nearly 1,000 miles in a little more than a week, fueled by an amazing number of calories. Racing dogs may eat as many as 12,000 calories a day, the equivalent of about 22 Big Macs from McDonalds.
www.adn.com www.adn.com

That suggests that prehistoric trade over the ice was feasible. Certainly faster than by foot or ox-cart. And competitive with sail.

And as evidence of "trade" I offer the bow and arrow - M1, M2, M3 and M4.

There were at least four waves of bow and arrow use in northern North America. These occurred at 12000, 4500, 2400, and after about 1300 years ago. But to understand the role of the bow and arrow in the north, one must begin in the eighteenth century, when the Russians first arrived in the Aleutian Islands. At that time, the Aleut were using both the atlatl and dart and the bow and arrow1 (Fig. 1). This is significant for two particular and important reasons. First, there are few historic cases in which both technologies were used concurrently; second, the bow and arrow in the Aleutian Islands were used almost exclusively in warfare. The atlatl was a critical technology because the bow and arrow are useless for hunting sea mammals. One cannot launch an arrow from a kayak because it is too unstable and requires that both hands remain on a paddle. To use an atlatl, it is necessary only to stabilize the kayak with a paddle on one side and launch the atlatl dart with the opposite hand. The Aleut on the Alaska Peninsula did indeed use the bow and arrow to hunt caribou there. However, in the 1,400 km of the Aleutian Islands, there are no terrestrial mammals except humans and the bow was reserved almost exclusively for conflicts among them. The most significant event in the history of the bow and arrow is not its early introduction, but rather the Asian War Complex 1300 years ago, when the recurve and backed bows first entered the region, altering regional and hemispheric political dynamics forever.
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onlinelibrary.wiley.com onlinelibrary.wiley.com

The M4, introduced about 700 AD, is coincidental with the Dene securing the Hopi-Pueblo land in Arizona and New Mexico. The M4 may also have displaced the M3 common in the Eastern Woodlands and contributed to the movement of the Ojibwa-Chippewa up the St Lawrence from the East Coast.

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All of which is to say... there are ample opportunities to challenge settled theories.
 

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The flood and Noah's ark was likely started as a campfire tale by some goat herders about a big rain that flooded the area.
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That's highly controversial. There's a highly charged academic debate raging about whether they were sheep herders.
 
Brad Sallows said:
That's highly controversial. There's a highly charged academic debate raging about whether they were sheep herders.
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Meeeeeehhhh!

Zooarchaeological analyses also hold the possibility of estimating the relative proportion of sheep and goat bones in an assemblage. Although not in equal proportions, there is clear evidence that the two species often coexisted in the same managed herd (see e.g. Becker et al. 2016; De Grossi Mazzorin 2013; De Grossi Mazzorin and Ruggini 2009; Greenfield 2005). Since goat hair has not yet been detected in Bronze Age textiles from European mainland, the presence of goats represents an important feature to factor in when discussing wool production, since a significant number of animals may not have been kept for wool. We are confronted by two major difficulties when attempting to estimate the ratio between these two taxa based on the old excavated bones. In general, the taxonomic representation in faunal assemblages may be biased and therefore not directly display the relative proportions of the species as they appeared in a given prehistoric landscape (e.g. Albarella 2017; see also Allentoft et al. 2010). Moreover, it can be very difficult to distinguish sheep from goat osteologically, unless there is access to the diagnostic bones, of which there are only a few (Gillis et al. 2011; Halstead et al. 2002; Salvagno and Albarella 2017). When these particular bones are missing one talks about sheep/goats. Today, due to the discovery of a type 1 collagen peptide with a differing sequence between sheep and goat, the two species can be easily distinguished based on their peptide mass fingerprints (PMF) (Buckley et al. 2010; Campana et al. 2013). This technology is also often referred to as ZooMS (Zooarchaeology by Mass Spectrometry) (see Buckley et al. 2009). Ancient DNA technology (as discussed below) offers another means to distinguish between the two species.
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link.springer.com

Approaching sheep herds origins and the emergence of the wool economy in continental Europe during the Bronze Age - Archaeological and Anthropological Sciences

In recent years, extensive archaeological studies have provided us with new knowledge on wool and woollen textile production in continental Europe during the Bronze Age. Concentrations of large numbers of textile tools, and of zooarchaeological evidence suggesting intense sheepherding, hint at...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
 
Colin Parkinson said:
If you have had kids, you know why the Bible was written, it was to give you something to say when your kids are going : "Why?, Why?, Why?"
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You are dating yourself. Now we just tell them to check Wikipedia out.
 
Remius said:
There is an emerging archeological field that is looking at that very thing.

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:ROFLMAO: Funny that you would bring that up.

The book that I've got on the back burner actually has as the main characters a surviving fictional group of Solutreans who wandered into America from Europe during the Ice age but were now dying out because of pressure from other tribes moving in from the west and southwest.

The backlash to the Solutrean hypothesis is intense and so far, aside from the Clovis point flint-making similarity, there has been no evidence of such a migration. DNA analyses of First Nations people and biological evidence recovered in archeology consistently point to all pre-Columbian human cultures in North America coming via the Siberian route.

It's a fun concept though and worthy of a nice novel. Maybe I'll get back to it some day.

🍻
 
Talking about Noah's flood, here in southwest Ontario we seem to be in a rain event of biblical proportions. We've had 2.5 inches in the last eight hours, the rain is coming down in sheets, my sump pump is working overtime, and there is no relief in sight.

Thinking of tearing down my fence for building materials for an arc.

⛵
 
FJAG said:
Talking about Noah's flood, here in southwest Ontario we seem to be in a rain event of biblical proportions. We've had 2.5 inches in the last eight hours, the rain is coming down in sheets, my sump pump is working overtime, and there is no relief in sight.

Thinking of tearing down my fence for building materials for an arc.

⛵
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I’ll tell the story.
 
Remius said:
I’ll tell the story.
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4.5 inches in under eighteen hours. The Environment Canada has us under a continuing rainfall warning with another 3 - 4 inches to night with some areas up to 6 inches and then a week of showers.

This is probably typical for BC but not SW Ontario. We'll see what the dawn brings. So far I'm holding off on the fence and ark thing.

🌨️☔⛵
 
There are alot of 'flood sagas' out there.

"Englishman George Smith astonished the public with his discovery of a Mesopotamian flood saga, written on a cuneiform tablet that had been unearthed in the recently discovered ruined city of Nineveh, that a clear precursor to the Noah story was established. (Upon discovering the tablet, Smith ran and jumped around the British Museum in a wild frenzy and, like Noah himself, began to disrobe.) The earlier Mesopotamian accounts included not only an apocalyptic flood and a guy, tipped off by a god, who saves himself, his family, and the world’s creatures by building a ship, but also specific details, such as the dispatching of a raven and a dove in search of land, the grounding of the ark atop a mountain, and the offering of a sweet-smelling animal sacrifice, just as in the Biblical account. The Hebrew scribes responsible for the Noah story were clearly working, either directly or indirectly, from an earlier literary source."

www.newyorker.com

Myth and Realism in Noah’s Ark

The worldly dimensions of Noah’s ark add a dash of literary realism to the remote and fantastical book of Genesis.
www.newyorker.com www.newyorker.com
 
Or, in spite of all our sophistication and greater insight because we are oh so much more advanced then they were, we are wrong and the story that you mock is correct. It isn't just the Mesopotamian, there are several dozen 'flood histories' found in people groups from all continents. Only arrogance writes off legend as fiction.
 
Sliding scale?

Fiction - Myth - Legend - History - Fact - Error? :giggle:
 
YZT580 said:
Or, in spite of all our sophistication and greater insight because we are oh so much more advanced then they were, we are wrong and the story that you mock is correct. It isn't just the Mesopotamian, there are several dozen 'flood histories' found in people groups from all continents. Only arrogance writes off legend as fiction.
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Who’s mocking it or deriding it as fiction? There was some joking a bit upthread, but there seems to be some pretty broad acceptance here that there was likely a cataclysmic enough flood at some point to have generated an array of likely related stories that got passed down through oral and later written history and made their way into religious texts. I see no mockery there.
 
Archaeology and history have benefited from native jurisprudence. Oral testimony, oral histories, or natives around the world have been given weight in legal proceedings. Previously they were dismissed as hearsay or fantasy. They were relegated to the realms of myths and legends.

Where archaeology and history have benefited is that even countries that have strong written histories have taken greater note of their oral traditions, their myths and legends, often transcribed when their people developed writing skills.

These days myths and legends are searched for those bits that can be cross-checked against histories, the archaeological and the geological record. And all sorts of interesting stuff is turned up.
 
Take the battle of Troy. Once thought a myth there is more and more evidence that it is historical fact. Now, not the way Homer may have wrote it. Take all the Gods intervening and such and you have the basis for real world events.

The Battle of Troy may have been a series of events spread over a long time. And there are certain academic circles that sees Homer’s epic as a fantasy setting in real world events. Not unlike historical fiction. Characters may have been embellished or even invented using a real series of events as the back drop.

Hercules (not Troy related) was said to be a half god. Just remember that Alexander the Great was claimed to be the half son of Zeus during his time and after and we know he existed.
 
Remius said:
Take the battle of Troy. Once thought a myth there is more and more evidence that it is historical fact. Now, not the way Homer may have wrote it. Take all the Gods intervening and such and you have the basis for real world events.

The Battle of Troy may have been a series of events spread over a long time. And there are certain academic circles that sees Homer’s epic as a fantasy setting in real world events. Not unlike historical fiction. Characters may have been embellished or even invented using a real series of events as the back drop.

Hercules (not Troy related) was said to be a half god. Just remember that Alexander the Great was claimed to be the half son of Zeus during his time and after and we know he existed.
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The father of history - I can't remember his name, he's a Greek fellow - said "it may be untrue but you have to believe" or words to that effect.
 
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