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Conflict in Darfur, Sudan - The Mega Thread

  • Thread starter Thread starter SFontaine
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Have to agree with Ceaser on the Colation of the willing thing.  What if say Iran and Syria and China decided to make a colation of the willing and step into oh i don't know for giggles lets say Indonesia.  On a humanitrian mission.  Not a pleasant thought.  I think it has to be a recognized body by the nations of the world not a colation cause you feel like thing.

But i think ceaser would have a hard sell with the SC on the US and other nations not necessarily being there.  you could expand it like we were talking about in the other UN post so it is done by region.  US, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, Russia, China, say India, Asia and Affrica. having the permant seats.  No one nation could veto any propsal you would need a majority rules,  so 5 outa 8.

the peace keepind division would be made up of troops from all nations who want to contribute them and they could be based in Europe and Asia and NA even in Affrica in say battle groups so they can train and what not but they could be deployed into any area quickly with all the equipment necessary.

just my thoughts
 
At least someone is doing something and they arent the UN.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/02/03/russia-sudan-peacekeeping050203.html


MOSCOW - Russian troops could be sent to Sudan to join United Nations peacekeeping forces after President Vladimir Putin signed an order on Thursday authorizing the move.


INDEPTH: Sudan

 
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks to lawmakers in Moscow Thursday. (AP photo) 
The resolution calls for Russia to send Interior Ministry units to Sudan's southern region, where a deal signed on Jan. 9 ended a 20-year civil war.

Russia's Interior Ministry has police units and military units. It wasn't clear which would be sent to Sudan.


The UN envoy to Sudan said last year that he expected a peace agreement to be followed by a Security Council resolution authorizing a wide-ranging UN peacekeeping mission with as many as 10,000 troops. But that resolution has been delayed.



 
It's counter productive to have Permanent Status. It's kinda like University Profs who have tenure (from the words 'ten year') - once you have it you're fire proof. Why bother contributing troops, money, or ideas to the SC if you can't be booted off?

Same thing for veto power. It gives those who have it NO incentive to be flexible, reasonable, or co-operative. I don't care that France had the shit kicked out of her twice in 25 years, they don't get to dump any plan that doesn't conform to their political ideology. Same goes for the US.

Wizard:that is exactly why the Coalition of the Willing is a bad idea on an on-going basis. It's great when the nations are our friends. Not so great when it's out enemies.
 
jmackenzie_15 said:
At least someone is doing something and they arent the UN.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/02/03/russia-sudan-peacekeeping050203.html


MOSCOW - Russian troops could be sent to Sudan to join United Nations peacekeeping forces after President Vladimir Putin signed an order on Thursday authorizing the move.


INDEPTH: Sudan

 
Russian President Vladimir Putin speaks to lawmakers in Moscow Thursday. (AP photo)  
The resolution calls for Russia to send Interior Ministry units to Sudan's southern region, where a deal signed on Jan. 9 ended a 20-year civil war.

Russia's Interior Ministry has police units and military units. It wasn't clear which would be sent to Sudan.


The UN envoy to Sudan said last year that he expected a peace agreement to be followed by a Security Council resolution authorizing a wide-ranging UN peacekeeping mission with as many as 10,000 troops. But that resolution has been delayed.

Fascinating ...

One wonders just who Putin might be interested in 'helping' and why.

I am 99% certain that Putin's aims involve making mischief at America's expense.   I suspect that Putin intends to prevent any Western led intervention in Sudan, thus allowing the government in Khartoum (and the government's paymasters in Riyadh) to continue to suppress and exploit the blacks in Sudan ... including in the lucrative slave trade.
 
Rusty Old Joint said:
Fascinating ...

One wonders just who Putin might be interested in 'helping' and why.

I am 99% certain that Putin's aims involve making mischief at America's expense.   I suspect that Putin intends to prevent any Western led intervention in Sudan, thus allowing the government in Khartoum (and the government's paymasters in Riyadh) to continue to suppress and exploit the blacks in Sudan ... including in the lucrative slave trade.
Hmm, considering China's great interest in Sudan (and thus explaining her attitude on the UNSC in this respect) and its oil - coupled with Russia's and China's off and on frictions, Putin's aim could be directed towards making mischief for Beijing rather than Washington.
 
Horse_Soldier said:
Hmm, considering China's great interest in Sudan (and thus explaining her attitude on the UNSC in this respect) and its oil - coupled with Russia's and China's off and on frictions, Putin's aim could be directed towards making mischief for Beijing rather than Washington.

Yes, good point ... I think we can assure ourselves that Putin will not do anything for America/the West.   He might well be acting on China's behalf.   Russia has an important long term interest in placating the Chinese who, every century or so, cast covetous eyes on Siberia.   The big change, for Russia, is that China is becoming a global superpower just as Russia, rusted out nukes and all, sinks into geo-political oblivion.   Maybe the bear is dancing to the tune of a guzheng.
 
I only gotta couple of pennies lft but here are two more.

True but with no veto vote and a majority rule it could accomplish a lot more of the things that need to be done.  And in my world France does not have a vote alone it would be part of western Europes vote so their would be Spain and England and Germany and so on in there to discuess it over with.

Or you could hold elections in the General Assebly areana for the SC but the nations have to represent those regions.  And it is not based on the size of your contribution to the organization have say anual dues, that if you contribute troops to it comes off the cost of those dues.

 
Wizard of OZ said:
I only gotta couple of pennies lft but here are two more.

True but with no veto vote and a majority rule it could accomplish a lot more of the things that need to be done.   And in my world France does not have a vote alone it would be part of western Europes vote so their would be Spain and England and Germany and so on in there to discuess it over with.

Or you could hold elections in the General Assebly areana for the SC but the nations have to represent those regions.   And it is not based on the size of your contribution to the organization have say anual dues, that if you contribute troops to it comes off the cost of those dues.

we're in complete agreement on all of your points here.
 
My own view is that right now China is playing a long game, staying out of the line of fire but always willing to support anything that causes mischief for the US. 

Russia, supported by some of their ancient political supporters in Europe (remember that the Europeans have been squabbling to get next to the Russian throne since Peter the Great's days) is trying to stay on the right side of China and at the same time look for an opportunity to regain its old supremacy.  This it is doing by trying to combine (for want of a better phrase) "Old Europe" led Europe, itself and China.  China may want the same thing but sees itself in the "Cat-bird seat".  This IMHO is probably more likely.

All parties in this triangle are agreed that the US is an obstacle to their goals.

The US finds allies in Australia, whose geopolitical situation is pretty simple, America as a friend or no friends in an inhospitable part of the world.  The UK and New Europe find themselves, as always trying to dance amongst the competing tensions of Europe.  In the UKs case that means staying inside Europe so as to be able to influence events and prevent the UK becoming the enemy.  Giving up enough sovereignty to buy a sufficiently influential seat at the table but at the same time keeping the British electors, who tend to be a very nationalistic bunch, onside and also maintaining enough sovereignty that it can act independently of Europe.  Especially, as is possible, the whole venture comes flying apart over irrenconcilable differences in the next 5 to 25 years and it finds itself divided with a resurgent Russia backed by a wealthy China on their doorstep.  To balance that out Tony has to also stay in good with the Yanks as he may want them to come calling for the third time.  I don't fancy his job.

Places like Iraq, Iran, Sudan are what they always have been,  the spaces in the middle of the chess board to be played over.

The one big question mark is India.  Whoever can secure India's support is going to have a big leg up on the future.  As a result everybody is currently paying court to India.  India faces threats to interest but I don't think it faces any realistic physical threats.  The Himalayas and the Oceans give her a reasonably secure physical location - consider China's great efforts to achieve a limited amphibious assault capability against an offshore island.  Blue water invasions seem to be a long way off.  As to coming over by Tibet - a quick scan of the history of the Burma - Ledo road will demonstrate the difficulties there ( anything on Chindits, 14th Army, Slim, Stillwell will get you there).  Not to mention over a billion nationalists many of them young and male.  So I think India can afford to sit back for a while and let the rest of the world come to her and see what kind of deals she can get.

I will be watching to see what we might make out of the tealeaves of the foreign policy review as to what direction Canada is leaning.  Total-Fina-Elf - France - Russia - China or Exxon - UK - India? - US.

 
I'm interested in the opinions of others on this board, especially those with current or past military experience.  How feasible do you think military action against Sudan would be?  And, what type of operations do you think would be most effective in physically stopping the militias from continuing their reign of terror, and deterring them in the future.  Small unit raids?  Special operations missions?  Air strikes of some sort?  Large unit formations to both engage the militias, and set up a police/security role?

I know there are several factors all contributing to the situation in that region.  Their history plays a significant role, as does the ability of the corrupt government officials to run about their business with virtually no opposition.  Although Mr. Martin's "Responsibility to Act" theme sounds good to the ear, he has to be able to back it up with physical means if necessary.  Until countries are willing to put some muscle behind their words, all they are are words.  The US threatened sanctions unless the situation improved - how do you put sanctions on a country that has virtually nothing to begin with?  If anything, sanctions might make their situation worse - depriving them of what little product they do import is hardly a productive solution to the problems over there.  Bah, I'm rambling again - sorry.

So, what do you guys think?  What do you think should be done, diplomatically and militarily?  And, leaning on a soldier's honour, after hearing the stories of mass rapes, mutilations, and mass killings (Heaven forbit we call it what it actually is, the teething of a genocide) - what do you think outta' be done?
 
With russia going in how long do you think it will be befroe we go.  My sources say it is going to be this summer. with the 3rd.


 
9 names the UN would PREFER we give to the "not genocide" in Darfur

  1. "Refugee Bingo"
  2. "The Sudenese government presents, Darfur on Ice!"
  3. "Just a few silly Arab militia men sowing their oats"
  4. "David Blaine's The Incredible Disappearing Civilians of Displeasing Ethnicity"
  5. "People Pruning"
  6. "Mulching the Desert"
  7. "No Chocolate Wednesdays"
  8. "That little African misunderstanding"
  9. â Å“'Extreme Makeover':  The Dark Continent edition"*
 
Feb. 5, 2005. 01:00 AM

West gets tied up in words as killing in Darfur rages


STEPHEN HANDELMAN
SPECIAL TO THE STAR

UNITED NATIONSâ ”On Jan. 22, 2004, armed government militia rode into Wadi Saleh, a desert region in western Sudan, and set dozens of small villages aflame in an orgy of murder and pillage.

When the burning was done the raiders herded frightened survivors into a large area, and the band leader read out on a microphone the names of 22 people. They were killed on the spot.

It was just one horrific incident in the nightmare of Darfur, where a systematic two-year government-backed campaign of rape, looting and homicide has scorched an entire swath of Sudan, killing over 70,000 people and driving some 2 million from their homes. But this incident, cited in the U.N. commission of inquiry's report on Darfur released this week, turns out to be one clue to an ugly 21st-century dilemma.

Is there a difference between genocide and crimes against humanity?

This sounds at first glance like a cruelly useless distinction. From the perspective of the victims, and civilized humanity, mass murder by any name deserves the worst punishment imaginable, as we were reminded last month by the 60th-anniversary commemorations of the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz.

But the difference does count when it comes to moving world opinion to action. The wrangles in the West over how to define genocide during the Rwanda civil war a decade ago gave many governments an excuse to turn a blind eye to what was going on â ” thereby causing countless more preventable deaths.

The U.N. report has already provoked a storm of criticism around the world by concluding that what went on in Darfur was not genocide but almost certainly "crimes against humanity." Sudanese opposition groups and human-rights advocates say the five-person panel, headed by Italian human-rights lawyer Antonio Cassese (former head of the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal) evaded their responsibility with irrelevant legal distinctions.

In fact, the closely argued 176-page report offers the first clear moral foundation not only for bringing to justice the perpetrators of human-rights crimes, but for intervening when the situation is too muddy to tell what's actually going on. In a world where it is almost certain that Darfur will not be the last example of gross inhumanity, that's a crucial step forward.

Take, for example, the massacres of Wadi Saleh in 2004. The ugly overtones of Nazi-style executions are hard to miss; nevertheless, as the commission points out, what stands out in that incident isn't who was killed, but who wasn't. All the civilians executed were suspected of being anti-government rebels, as were another 205 killed later. But at least 800 were spared death, according to witnesses.

Brutal, yes. But genocide? The case "clearly shows that the intent of the attackers was not to destroy an ethnic group (but) to murder all those men they considered as rebels," said the inquiry. It documents a number of similar incidents, along with statements of witnesses and survivors to back up its argument that while there was a systematic attempt to intimidate large groups of people in Darfur, through murder and forced expulsions, there was no "genocidal intent," that is, a Nazi-style campaign to exterminate entire classes of people.

The commission uses a Canadian legal opinion to back up its argument. In 1999, Department of Foreign Affairs lawyers concluded the ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians during the Balkans war didn't amount to genocide. The reason, according to Ottawa's legal memo: the Albanians were being killed "in order to drive them from their homes, not in order to destroy them as a group."

Does the point really matter? To the extent that it erodes the high hurdle Western governments have set themselves since the Nazi era to intervene massively only in cases of genocide, it matters very much.

Genocide was long assumed to be the "crime of crimes." But, as the inquiry points out, there is no hierarchy when it comes to evil. "Crimes against humanity or large-scale war crimes may be no less serious and heinous than genocide," insists the report.

And it matters particularly now, in Darfur. While the Sudanese government and the West continue to wrangle about the proper category of murder, the killing and rape goes on.

By calling on the international community to act now without quibbling over 50-year-old legal differences, and bring the perpetrators (the panel says it has identified 51 individuals) to the International Criminal Court, the commission has provided a genuine service to Darfur's still-terrified inhabitants, and to those who may someday find themselves in a similar hell.

"Real peace cannot be established without justice," the inquiry says. No one could put it better.
Additional articles by Stephen Handelman


...again we do nothing because of the "wording"....I really don't think those innocent people care if its genocide, crimes against humanity or just a lot of murdering,........its the same thing to the individual involved.
It would be nice to see the UN actually do something here instead of waiting and knowing eventually the US and its allies will step in and then get criticized for actually acting upon the resolutions they passed.........for another 12 years?
 
Anti-War Questions
by 'Cicero' at February 6, 2005 05:09 PM

Liberals are or should be aligned with progressive politics and values. So in light of political progressives who eschew President Bush's war against Saddam, a few questions:

    * What would have been the best, most legitimate way for Iraq to achieve democratic elections? Can it be applied to Burma, North Korea, Iran, and other dictatorships?

    * If your answer to this question involves the UN, address the UN's corruption with the Oil-for-Food scandal, sex slaves in the Congo, and the inability to prevent the Rwandan genocide. If the top dogs of the UN are profiteers for the containment of dictators like Saddam, and their representatives trafficking sex in the countries they purport to peace-keep, how can the UN be a legitimate force for democracy?

    * Are tyrants defeated with soft power, or merely contained until they fade away? Is contained fascism simply the unstated and accepted cost of soft power? If it is, should Hitler have been opposed?

    * What can corrupt soft power?

    * Are there any circumstances where hard power is warranted?

    * If the UN is too corrupt and impotent, and the US is too sovereign to represent the world, what organization would you propose instead?

    * Would a 'UN-D' -- a variation or branch of the United Nations, except the members are all democracies -- be a better legitimizing force for democracy than either the United States or the current United Nations?

    * If you had to wear a uniform and be put in harm's way, but could choose the flag you fought for, which flag would it be: Your family crest; your town's flag; your state's flag; your country's flag; your religion's flag; the UN, NATO or EU flag; or an NGO flag. Why?
And Mark Styen on more UN shenanigans. Honestly, should we even be associated with the UN anymore?

Would you trust these men with $64bn of your cash? Of course not
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 06/02/2005)

At tough times in my life, with the landlord tossing my clothes and record collection out on to the street, I could have used an aunt like Benon Sevan's. Asked to account for the appearance in his bank account of a certain $160,000, Mr Sevan, executive director of the UN Oil-for-Food programme, said it was a gift from his aunt. Lucky Sevan, eh? None of my aunts ever had that much of the folding stuff on tap.

And nor, it seems, did Mr Sevan's. She lived in a modest two-room flat back in Cyprus and her own bank accounts gave no indication of spare six-figure sums. Nonetheless, if a respected UN diplomat says he got 160,000 bucks from Auntie, we'll just have to take his word for it. Paul Volcker's committee of investigation did plan to ask the old lady to confirm her nephew's version of events, but, before they could, she fell down an elevator shaft and died.

If you're a UN bigshot, or the son of Kofi Annan, or the cousin of Boutros Boutros-Ghali, or any of the other well-connected guys on the Oil-for-Fraud payroll, $160,000 is pretty small beer. But, if you're a starving kid in Ramadi or Nasariyah, it would go quite a long way. Instead, the starving-kid money went a long way in the opposite direction, to the Swiss bank accounts of Saddam's apologists. "The Secretary-General is shocked by what the report has to say about Mr Sevan," declared Kofi Annan's chief of staff, Britain's own Mark Malloch Brown.

That's how bad things are at the UN: even the Brits sound like Claude Rains. Of course, the Secretary-General isn't "shocked" at all. And nor are the media, which is why the major news organisations can barely contain their boredom with the biggest financial scam of all time â “ bigger than Enron, Worldcom and all the rest rolled into one. If ever there were a dog-bites-man story, "UN Stinkingly Corrupt Shock!" is it.

And, in a way, they have a point: what happened was utterly predictable. If I had $64 billion of my own money, I'd look after it carefully. But give someone $64 billion of other people's money to "process" and it would be surprising if some of it didn't get peeled off en route. Especially if that $64 billion gives you access to a unique supply of specially low-priced oil you can re-sell at market prices. Hire Third World bureaucrats to supervise the "processing" and you can kiss even more of it goodbye. Grant Saddam Hussein the right of approval over the bank that will run the scheme, and it's clear to all that nit-picky book-keeping will not be an overburdensome problem.

In other words, the system didn't fail. This is the transnational system, working as it usually works, just a little more so. One of the reasons I'm in favour of small government is because big government tends to be remote government, and remote government is unaccountable, and, as a wannabe world government, the UN is the remotest and most unaccountable of all. If the sentimental utopian blather ever came true and we wound up with one "world government", from an accounting department point of view, the model will be Nigeria rather than New Hampshire.

That's why Washington has no interest in joining Gordon Brown's newly announced Cash-for-Guilt programme, under which the Chancellor (or, to be more precise, you) has agreed to improve the Afro-kleptocracy's cash flow by transferring 10 per cent of its debt burden to the United Kingdom â “ a perfect example of the malign combination of empty European gesture-politics and Third World larceny that's been the default mode of progressive transnationalism for far too long. By contrast, consider the splendid John Howard. In announcing Australian's $1 billion tsunami aid package, he was careful to emphasise that he wouldn't be wiring it via the estate of Benon Sevan's late auntie.

If Paul Volcker's preliminary report on Oil-for-Food dealt with the organisation's unofficial interests, the UN's other report of the week accurately captured their blithe insouciance to their official one. As you may have noticed, the good people of Darfur have been fortunate enough not to attract the attention of the arrogant cowboy unilateralist Bush and have instead fallen under the care of the Polly Toynbee-Clare Short-approved multilateral compassion set. So, after months of expressing deep concern, grave concern, deep concern over the graves and deep grave concern over whether the graves were deep enough, Kofi Annan managed to persuade the UN to set up a committee to look into what's going on in Darfur. They've just reported back that it's not genocide.

That's great news, isn't it? For as yet another Annan-appointed UN committee boldly declared in December: "Genocide anywhere is a threat to the security of all and should never be tolerated." So thank goodness this isn't genocide. Instead, it's just 70,000 corpses who all happen to be from the same ethnic group â “ which means the UN can go on tolerating it until everyone's dead, and Polly and Clare don't have to worry their pretty little heads about it.

That's the transnational establishment's alternative to Bush and Howard: appoint a committee that agrees on the need to do nothing. Thus, a few days ago, the UN Human Rights Commission announced the working group that will decide which complaints will be heard at their annual meeting in Geneva this spring: the five-nation panel comprises the Netherlands, Hungary, Cuba, Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe. I wouldn't bet on them finding room on their crowded agenda for the question of human rights in Cuba, Saudi Arabia and Zimbabwe, would you? One of the mystifying aspects of UN worship is the assumption that this embryo world government is a "progressive" concept. It's not. Its squalid geographic voting blocs, which use regional solidarity to inflate the status of nickel'n'dime dictators, are merely a Third World gloss on the Congress of Vienna â “ a relic of an age when contact between states was confined to their governing elites. In an era of jet travel, internet and debit cards that work in any bank machine from Vancouver to Vilnius to Vanuatu, there are millions of global relationships far better for the long-term health of the planet than using American money to set up Eurowimp talking shops manned by African thugs â “ which is what the UN Human Rights Commission boils down to.

The Bush Administration is now said to be considering using Kofi's "shock" to effect a regime change of its own at the UN. But to whom and to what? I'd be in favour of destroying the UN â “ or, failing that, at least moving its headquarters to Rwanda, but either of those options would require a level of political will hard to muster in modern sentimental democracies.

The best alternative to the transâ ?national jet-set is nothing â “ or at least nothing formal. When the tsunami hit, the Americans and Australians had troops and relief supplies on the ground within hours and were coordinating their efforts without any global bureaucracy at all. Imagine that: an unprecedented disaster, and yet robust, efficient, compatible, results-oriented nations managed to accomplish more than the international system specifically set up to manage such events. Would it have helped to elect a steering committee with Sudan and Zimbabwe on it? Of course not. But, if the UN wants to hold meetings, hector Washington, steal money and give tacit approval to genocide, let it â “ and let it sink into irrelevance.
 
Hot off the press ...

http://www.herald.ns.ca/stories/2005/02/10/fCanada168.raw.html

Handful of troops headed to Sudan

By STEPHEN THORNE / The Canadian Press

OTTAWA - The Canadian Forces will send 19 soldiers to war-torn Sudan as soon as the United Nations begins its mission, possibly spearheading a larger Canadian commitment later on, Defence Department officials confirm.

"I think you will see (more) Canadian troops in Sudan before the year is out," a highly placed military source told The Canadian Press.

"No one really knows details at this point."

A spokeswoman for Defence Minister Bill Graham said she was not aware of any long-term plans to boost Canada's military commitment in Sudan.

Nor were sources at the military's co-ordinator of overseas deployments.

But after Prime Minister Paul Martin visited Sudan in November, he said Khartoum's claim that it's powerless to rein in militias and halt 21 months of violence simply won't wash.

A peace accord was signed Jan. 5, but violence continues.

Martin has offered to dramatically boost aid to the 700 African peacekeepers in the country by increasing Ottawa's contribution of chartered helicopters to 18 from five at a cost of $13.4 million.

Canada is also sending $1.17 million in military supplies, including 2,200 body-armour vests and helmets, and is contributing $2.5 million to the World Food Program in Sudan.

Two of the 19 Canadian officers will be posted with African Union troops in the Sudanese capital Khartoum and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia; 17 will join the UN Multinational Standby High-Readiness Brigade, a quick-response unit commanded by Canadian Brig.-Gen. Greg Mitchell.

The latter group, which has included two Canadian soldiers in Sudan for seven months, will be based in Khartoum, said navy Lieut. Joseph Frey.

The UN mission was approved in late January, but there is no firm deployment date yet.

The decision coincides with the end of a one-year stand-down by Canada's military, during which Canadians were withdrawn from Bosnia, Haiti and Afghanistan and Canada's overseas troop commitment was reduced by more than half.

Sudan would fit the federal government's stated policy to get more involved in humanitarian, peacemaking and peacekeeping operations. It has promised to recruit 5,000 additional soldiers for just that purpose.
 
Based on the fact the the current UN forces have watched helplessly as villages were bombarded by air, maybe we could deploy our ADATS.
 
How 'bout this. Abolish the useless UN. Then take the Red Cross and outfit them with an international armed force of soldiers armed with a mandate to protect and deliver aid to the victims of oppressive governments AT ALL COSTS. Then when these starved people get there strength back perhaps they can take up their own arms and fight their own battles. Why do you think the dictator's and their corrupt generals keep the masses starved and their own armies well fed?
 
Funny, George W did that in Iraq, and all he got was a lot of abuse for his trouble......
 
I wish a deployment opportunity was available when I was in - I would jump at the chance to be deployed to the dark continent, and rid this world of some true evil.  Bosnia and Kosovo were at their peaks when I was in, which still would have been a great opportunity - but going to Sudan to help end ethnic cleansing on such a huge scale?  That would be an ideal tour.  Something with just as much heart in it as politics, would be a great tour.

I know the world's governments have pussy-footed around this issue for a while, by trying to call it everything except for what it really is - but how hard to you think it would be to actually engage an enemy like that in Sudan?  The French destroyed the entire Ivory Coast air force while it was still on the ground just a few months ago, to get rid of the neusance of pestering aircraft - anybody else think maybe that would be a good idea here also?  Sudan can't have much of an air-force to begin with, so its not something that can't be potentially stood back up a few years down the road.

Anyways, good to see we're finally getting involved in something like Sudan.  Who knows, if our committment is long enough and robust enough, I'd sure as heck wouldn't mind getting back in and doing a tour there.
 
Yeah, but George W had other things in mind when he went to Iraq.  If he went there strictly for humanitarian purposes, like he claims - there are a million places in more dire need of help than Iraq.  Yes, Saddam needed to go.  But, George W Bush lost a lot of the world's trust when he started a pre-emptive war, based on misleading facts, while transparently misleading the rest of the world.  Sending in troops with a robust mandate to protect humanitarian aid and protect villagers from being raped and pillaged is a bit different than invading Iraq because of WMD, oops - I mean because Saddam posed a threat - oops, I mean because we need to get rid of Saddam to promote democracy, and oops - because there is some oil there too.
 
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