Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread

[TCBF]

Us Whities need a quick and dirty guide to the phrases and words you are scripting so we can keep up with this thread!

 

[Yrys]

China to loan Pakistan $500M

SLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP)  -- China will offer its close ally Pakistan a low-interest $500 million (315 million euro) loan to help ease its growing financial problems, Pakistan's
foreign minister said.

Shah Mehmood Qureshi made the announcement Thursday after a recent visit to China and after Pakistan hosted a protest-free, security-heavy leg of the Olympic torch relay amid
Western criticism of its giant neighbor's human rights record in Tibet. Qureshi, who accompanied President Pervez Musharraf on the April 10-15 trip, said that it had been "highly
successful." "If we have any reliable friend, my experience says it is China," Qureshi said at a news conference in the capital, Islamabad.

Qureshi is a loyalist of slain former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, whose party defeated Musharraf's political supporters in February elections and now leads a new coalition
government. The government has inherited an ailing economy. It faces yawning budget and balance of payments deficits driven by rising world prices for commodities such as oil.

The World Bank last month urged the new administration to take urgent action or risk a crisis, even though the economy was still growing at an annual rate of more than 6 percent.
On Thursday, Qureshi said that Pakistan faces "huge economic problems" but that he hoped the government would overcome them. He said that trade between Pakistan and China
was worth $6.8 billion (4.28 billion euros), and that he hoped that it would reach $15 billion (9.45 billion euros) by 2011.

The two countries' alliance goes back decades, and China is a leading source of investment and arms supplies for Pakistan. They are also rivals of India, which neighbors both.

 

[tingbudong]

Flip wrote:

If what Tingbudong says is true ( I assume it is ) the short answer to internal strife could be to blame the west for all of their problems.  It doesn't have to be true to be effective.

I will not push as far to say that promoting anti-western sentiment and focusing blame on foreign powers is "official" government policy but it probably is only one or two signatures and bills away from becoming dogma.  Nationalism has proven to be a good fill for the void left by Marxism.  The central government is aware of the double-edged nature of utilizing nationalism as a nation binder.  For example, in many cases (sorry, not cites available, just items/conversations I've read/had over the years) the government is heavily criticized by many for coming off as too 'soft' against the West, especially during the Embassy airstrike in 99' and the Hainan Island incident in 2001, especially among the new generation.  Keep in mind, this new generation has been shaked and baked in patriotic/nationlistic sauce since kindergarten -  they will find themselves in a very controlled, monitored and paternal environment, protected against all of the negative outside influences. Within such a context, I feel that this generation has developed a substantially over-positive view regarding their country and the direction it is heading. But more importantly, this vocal and visible end of this generation has also never had to cope with any sort of economic or social unrest...unlike previous generations who take a somewhat more cautious, tempered and overall realistic outlook on the present and future direction of their country.

@CD - In complete argreement with you regarding the Han-centric orientation of nationalism.  Also arguing online with an Mainland uber-nationalist is probably the most frustrating thing one can engage in On an related note, a rather new phenonomenon is the increasing usage of the term 'brainwashed' by Mainlanders in referring to Western people.  I never I'd read/hear that one...

Currently there is a noticiable anti-western edge in air.  A lot of people are becoming increasingly convinced that the West is out to ruin the Olympics, divide China and basically lay down the humiliation like we did in the past.  Our media is seen as the front line of this assault and I believe that their actions have been translated incorrectly.

There much difficulty by many here in separating political/policy criticisms from cultural criticisms. The role of the press in China is a positive one, while in the West it is firmly entrenched in a tradition of rabble-rousing and causing change. I think it is possible to argue that the western media approach was underpinned in the western assumption that investigative and revealing journalism and critique will spur the masses, create dissent and be the instrument of change. However it appears to have been interpreted as a direct, blatant and bias attack on China/Chinese people. This misunderstanding is also extended to people on the mainland who (hardly their fault) are not aware that this is what the western media does. The search out problems, the attack, they hurt and they are very unrelenting (often making many mistakes in the process). I've noticed that there seems to be the belief that China is alone in these attacks...and attitude of "you always pick on us" but in the reality, they are merely this months whipping boy. When something more sinister (and therefore interesting) arrives on the world stage, the beats head over there. It is not an 'anti-china' crusade...the media will take on anyone, anywhere, for anything...just as the United States what it is like to be on the end of the media baton.

 

[TCBF]

- Now THAT makes a lot of sense to me.  It would probably make sense to a lot of Chinese too, if they could be convinced that a lot of our Western processes were inherently chaotic, inefficient, and often downright unfair.

 

[CougarKing]

Some humour to brighten your Sunday; another reason why they need more English teachers over there on mainland China.  ;D (ZAO GAO/WHAT A MESS!!!!  :rofl

I think the second picture is from Taiwan, Macau or Hong Kong since the characters are in Traditional Chinese characters/Fan ti zi and not the Simplified characters/Jian ti zi that they use on the mainland.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Interesting thread.  I had a sneaking suspicion, based on my three all-too-brief visits to China, that the Tibet protests in the West around the Olympics would have a completely undesired effect.  It would be rather ironic if a bunch of "Free Tibet" protestors caused (at best) a new Cold War.  Western Governments should temper their responses to China's actions in Tibet with a realistic understanding of the enormous loss of face China would undergo if the Olympics were boycotted.  This should be done not out of a fear of China, per se, but out of a cautious approach in the face the unpredictable nature of ultra-nationalism.

 

[time expired]

Ah yes, the voice of appeasement,the same voices that say we should
not complain too much about the actions of Muslin terrorists as it
may upset them and perhaps drive the price of oil up even further.
Fortunately,we in the west have the freedom to protest against what
we perceive as injustice and oppresion even though it may upset
those who are making a good buck from turning China into a super-
power,incidentally,one with no apparent moral compass something
they seem to share with all ex-communist regimes,and those who
find it very disappointing that there is no easy way to blame George
Bush for what is happening.
                  End of rant.
                                Regards

 

[Edward Campbell]

There's an additional factor: it is not clear to me that Tibet is repressed or exploited.

Caveat lector: I have not been to Tibet and I'm unlikely to get here before 2010, at the earliest.

But: I have met a few Tibetans, in China, who were quite emphatic in their distaste for any return to some sort to Buddhist theocracy. The last one (1912-1950) is, I think geneally regarded as having been corrupt and inept. The CCP does not provide much in the way of good government for anyone anywhere but it appears to be 'better' than what the Dalia Lama and his cronies have on offer.

Finally: I cannot find any good case that Tibet is not an integral part of China. It's few and brief periods of independence do not, in my view, offset its long history as a Chines province or client.

 

[CougarKing]

There's an additional factor: it is not clear to me that Tibet is repressed or exploited.

Caveat lector: I have not been to Tibet and I'm unlikely to get here before 2010, at the earliest.

But: I have met a few Tibetans, in China, who were quite emphatic in their distaste for any return to some sort to Buddhist theocracy. The last one (1912-1950) is, I think geneally regarded as having been corrupt and inept. The CCP does not provide much in the way of good government for anyone anywhere but it appears to be 'better' than what the Dalia Lama and his cronies have on offer.

Finally: I cannot find any good case that Tibet is not an integral part of China. It's few and brief periods of independence do not, in my view, offset its long history as a Chines province or client.

I'm just curious though- were these Tibetans whom you met ones who actually had lived in Tibet before and were now living in a different province or Tibetans/Xizang ren who had spent all their lives outside of Tibet? Perhaps their older relatives who remember the initial PRC invasion in 1949-50, IIRC, and the failed 1959 uprising may have a different opinion from their younger generations.

The issue of self-determination is a messy one and has been a messy one since the Pan-Slavism of the 1800s, Wilsonian self-determination that saw the end of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the end of World War One and then with the waves of decolonization after World War II that saw the Western Allies give up most of their overseas empires.

If one takes a relativist definition of it, a Tibetan exile or sympathizer will then ask you if Tibetan self-determination is any less valid than that of the Kosovars or the East Timorese?

Then take an absolutist definition of self-determination and a Chinese ultra-nationalist will accuse you of trying to incite instability where none is needed, and they will often ask how come you are meddling into their affairs when "you Westerners/Lao Wai" are indifferent about the Kurds in Northern Iraq or various seperatist movements that have cropped up all through the history of the United States.  :

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Ah yes, the voice of appeasement,the same voices that say we should
not complain too much about the actions of Muslin terrorists as it
may upset them and perhaps drive the price of oil up even further.

Ah no.  This is not about appeasement.  This is about ensuring that we understand the second and third order effects of our actions wrt China.

Let's make sure that if we are going to pick a fight, that we make sure that we understand precisely what it's all about.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm just curious though- were these Tibetans whom you met ones who actually had lived in Tibet before and were now living in a different province or Tibetans/Xizang ren who had spent all their lives outside of Tibet? Perhaps their older relatives who remember the initial PRC invasion in 1949-50, IIRC, and the failed 1959 uprising may have a different opinion from their younger generations.

The issue of self-determination is a messy one and has been a messy one since the Pan-Slavism of the 1800s, Wilsonian self-determination that saw the end of the Austro-Hungarian Empire at the end of World War One and then with the waves of decolonization after World War II that saw the Western Allies give up most of their overseas empires.

If one takes a relativist definition of it, a Tibetan exile or sympathizer will then ask you if Tibetan self-determination is any less valid than that of the Kosovars or the East Timorese?

Then take an absolutist definition of self-determination and a Chinese ultra-nationalist will accuse you of trying to incite instability where none is needed, and they will often ask how come you are meddling into their affairs when "you Westerners/Lao Wai" are indifferent about the Kurds in Northern Iraq or various seperatist movements that have cropped up all through the history of the United States.  :

I'm not really sure about the Tibetans' pedigree; they were of an age to remember 1949/50; I have the impression they were 'real' Tibetans but I have no idea, now, why I think that.

I agree with you about the messy nature of the Tibet separatist debate. I prefere to call them separatists because, as I read it, the Dalai Lama's followers look a lot like old PQ types seeking some ill-defined form of sovereignty association.

 

[tomahawk6]

China stole Tibet fair and square and since the Tibetans are such losers they dont deserve to be free of Chinese domination.Israel captured land in its wars but by that rationale though Israel must give up those lands. We have Chinese and North Korean troops patroling the streets in Zimbabwe. They are a long way from home dont you think ?

China has its own agenda and is pursuing it. Many countries that should know better are willing to turn a blind eye to China saying that to do otherwise means war. China has its pressure points and we shouldnt be afraid to apply pressure to get them to moderate their aggressive policies.

 

[cavalryman]

China has its own agenda and is pursuing it. Many countries that should know better are willing to turn a blind eye to China saying that to do otherwise means war. China has its pressure points and we shouldnt be afraid to apply pressure to get them to moderate their aggressive policies.

tomahawk6 - don't get me wrong - I'm about as contemptuous of anti-americanism as it comes living in Canada's capital, but it just bears pointing out that a chunk of the planet, for whatever cackheaded reasons, would substitute "China" for "United States" in your statement, including a fair number of our so-called European allies, to make a similar point.  China is able to exploit the anti-western, anti-anglo (in Mugabe's case) and anti-american sentiment in what used to be called the Third World the same way we (writ large as in NATO pre-Berlin Wall collapse) used to exploit anti-soviet expansionism.  We should not be blind to the fact that the "West" isn't well seen in many countries, for whatever reasons, good or bad, and China is stepping in as the alternative.  Is it good? Is it bad?  We can look at the way western countries did the same in the last two hundred years and come up with the same spectrum of divergent opinions.  Fact is, China is positioning itself as the alternative in Africa and elsewhere, and in that we agree.  We should simply be ready to make a strong case that the Chinese intervention is a lesser brand than Western (read US) intervention.  Of course, one of the big factors militating for Chinese superiority is their ability to sell crap to every willing buyer and raking in hard currency, something we, the West can't do.

Anyways, some musings for a Monday night that saw the Habs pull off in 7 games what they should have pulled off in 5.

Cheers

 

[SeaKingTacco]

China has its pressure points and we shouldnt be afraid to apply pressure to get them to moderate their aggressive policies.

But that is precisely my point- understand the effects of your pressure.  It is not about giving the Chinese a free pass- it is about boycotting an Olympics over Tibet, which, IMHO is likely to do little but needlessly enrage the uber-nationalist Chinese public, which will be the opposite of moderating Chinese policy.  Better, IMHO, to go to Olympics and beat their ass on home turf.

Better still- you don't like Chinese foreign and domestic policy- stop buying their crap.  That will apply pressure very nicely, should enough people do it.

My two Yuan...

 

[tomahawk6]

I agree that boycotting the Olympics is not the way to go. Nor is giving China a pass. I agree that some countries fear/hate the US more than they do China. Take the US out of the equation in the world today and what will the world look like ? Would it be a more dangerous place ? I think so.

 

[CougarKing]

We have Chinese and North Korean troops patroling the streets in Zimbabwe. They are a long way from home dont you think ?

I've heard of PLA engineering troops working in African nations often under the UN mandate, as in the case of Sudan, but I have never heard of North Korean troops there. This is very surprising to me. Got any pictures or a good link?  

Also, I'm curious about what you think of the shipment of Chinese-made weapons that is headed to Zimbabwe on a Guangzhou-registered cargo ship named the An Yue Jiang, IIRC.

Here's an article on that story: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/04/19/safrica.china/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (CNN) -- A Chinese ship loaded with arms and ammunition sailed away from a South African waters and is on its way to Luanda, Angola to unload its cargo bound for Zimbabwe.

South Africa's High Court ruled Friday the cargo could be offloaded in the Durban port, but it could not pass over South Africa roads to get to Zimbabwe, a country in crisis because of an election stalemate.

Durban's dockworkers also said they would not handle the cargo, fearing the arms would be used by the Zimbabwean government against its own people.

A South African government source told CNN the China-flagged An Yue Jiang had sailed away from Durban Friday evening before the High Court's order could be served to the ship's captain.

The ship was headed to the port of Luanda, Angola, according to the South African Department of Transport.

Zimbabwe is in turmoil after elections last month that saw the opposition Movement for Change party win a majority of seats in the parliament, although Mugabe's ZANU-PF party has contested 16 seats, claiming the MDC cheated.

The Zimbabwe Electoral Commission began a recount of 23 of those districts Saturday morning.

The presidential election, however, has sparked much more concern. The government of President Robert Mugabe, who has been in power since Zimbabwe won its independence in 1980, has refused to release results of that vote before a recount.

The MDC says its candidate, Morgan Tsvangirai, won the election, but ZANU-PF has claimed the MDC engaged in election tampering. The delay in releasing the vote sparked violence and a government crackdown on opposition members.

"This union has a proud history of taking action against regimes which it disapproves of in the past, but this is certainly the first time it has gotten involved in an African regime like Zimbabwe," David Cockroft, general secretary of the International Transport Workers Federation, said.

"I don't think there's much doubt that the (dock) workers ... are very strongly against the Mugabe regime," he said.

Cockroft said that arms had almost certainly been shipped to Zimbabwe through Durban in the past, but the size of this shipment -- "more than a million pounds" and 3.5 million rounds of rifles, small arms, mortar shells and rocket-propelled grenades -- made it more noteworthy.

Earlier, South African Revenue Service spokesman Adrian Lackay told CNN "that it is commonplace for landlocked neighboring states in southern Africa to use South African ports of entry for the transshipment of goods."

Lackay indicated that the ship had complied with South African regulations requiring it to disclose the contents of the cargo it is carrying.

A government spokesman, Thembo Maseko, told CNN, "There were arms on the ship."

The Chinese Foreign Ministry issued a statement in a fax to the Reuters news agency saying that China and Zimbabwe have normal trade relations, that the Chinese government takes a "prudent and responsible" position on arms deals and that it does not involve itself in the internal affairs of other countries.

CNN's Nkepile Mabuse and Bridget Fallon contributed to this report.

quote by Tomahawk6:

China has its own agenda and is pursuing it. Many countries that should know better are willing to turn a blind eye to China saying that to do otherwise means war. China has its pressure points and we shouldnt be afraid to apply pressure to get them to moderate their aggressive policies.

They are not afraid of war with China as much as they are afraid of losing Chinese foreign economic aid; one of the ways Beijing lures away potential allies of Taiwan/the ROC is to use economic aid to get them to recognize Beijing instead of Taipei as the "One China". That is why only about 20 or so nations in the world, which includes mostly Third-World nations like Liberia and Panama, recognize Taipei's government as the one China as opposed to Beijing.

The lesser the number of nations who recognize the ROC as opposed to the PRC, the less chance that Taiwan has of getting UN membership (through its allies who are UN members) in the annual motion each year to vote on whether to introduce the issue of Taiwan's prospective membership in the UN, which is blocked by the overwhelming number of allies China has who vote against the motion.

 

[tomahawk6]

The US is going to add a Marine guard to the unofficial embassy in Taipei.

 

[CougarKing]

The US is going to add a Marine guard to the unofficial embassy in Taipei.

Wow, that will definitely irk China a bit. When I went to the AIT (The American Institute in Taiwan/the unofficial embassy) one day back in 1998, I noticed an empty sentry post by the gate which had a sort of "pillbox" look. If this goes through, this will be the first time since the 1970s (when the AIT was the official embassy and before the US withdrew recognition of Taipei's government as the "One China") that there will be Marines in that quasi-embassy.

 

[Edward Campbell]

But that is precisely my point- understand the effects of your pressure.  It is not about giving the Chinese a free pass- it is about boycotting an Olympics over Tibet, which, IMHO is likely to do little but needlessly enrage the uber-nationalist Chinese public, which will be the opposite of moderating Chinese policy.  Better, IMHO, to go to Olympics and beat their ass on home turf.

Better still- you don't like Chinese foreign and domestic policy- stop buying their crap.  That will apply pressure very nicely, should enough people do it.

My two Yuan...

This is a +2 in the system to which I am accustomed.

Fanning the flames of Chinese nationalism serves the CCP, none else.

The Chinese can be pressured, but to apply pressure one must, first, engage them - a boycott is, by definition, disengagement. Economic tools as the easiest and best but they must be applied with great care, especially by Americans, because the Chinese are not without economic levers of their own.

 

[CougarKing]

That Chinese cargo ship carrying weapons supposedly destined for Mugabe's government in Zimbabwe- possibly to intimidate opposition voters- has been ordered to return to China because of its difficulties at African ports, IIRC.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/22/us.zimbabwe/index.html

Ship bound for Zimbabwe may return home, says Chinese official

(CNN) -- A Chinese ship that was blocked from unloading its cargo in South Africa may return to China because of difficulties at African ports, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu said Tuesday.

The ship, which is suspected to be carrying weapons destined for Zimbabwe, left South African waters Friday after that country's High Court ruled that the cargo could not be transported over South African roadways to landlocked Zimbabwe -- where violence continues in a dispute over election results.

It was last believed to be headed toward Angola, South African officials said.

The United States has asked that other southern African countries not allow the ship to dock, a senior U.S. administration official in Washington said Tuesday.

Deputy U.S. State Department spokesman Tom Casey told CNN the United States has been "tracking this vessel for a few days now and we don't think it is appropriate for anyone to provide additional weapons in Zimbabwe as they are going through a political crisis."

The United States has contacted South Africa and Mozambique, as well as China, regarding the ship's movements, Casey added.

The United States is "pleased no country in the region has allowed the vessel to offload" its cargo of weapons, Casey said.

Jiang, speaking in Beijing, said it's up to the shipping company to determine if the An Yue Jiang would return to China.

After Friday's High Court ruling in South Africa, dockworkers in the port of Durban said they would not handle the cargo, fearing the arms would be used by the Zimbabwean government against its own people.

The ship sailed away from the port even before the court's order was delivered to the captain, a South African government source told CNN.
The ship was headed for the port of Luanda, Angola, according to the South African Department of Transport, but it is unclear if it has reached that destination.

Another U.S. administration official said the ship's cargo -- which they said includes small arms, rifles and ammunition -- was bound for Zimbabwe's security forces. The official did not want to be identified because the situation is ongoing.

It's "the kind of stuff the police and military would hold," the official explained.

The best case scenario would be for the Chinese to recall the ship, the official added.

Zimbabwe is landlocked and must use the ports of neighboring countries to unload shipments for transit.

The ship also tried to dock in Mozambique but was refused permission, the official said.

China is a major small arms supplier for several countries, but the U.S. official said "the timing of this arms shipment is important" given the instability in Zimbabwe, where tensions are high over the current government's refusal to release the results from last month's presidential elections.

The government of incumbent President Robert Mugabe, who has been in power since Zimbabwe won its independence in 1980, has refused to release the results of that vote before a recount.

The Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) says its candidate, Morgan Tsvangirai, won the election, but the ruling party ZANU-PF claims the MDC engaged in election tampering.

The delay in releasing the results of the vote sparked violence and a government crackdown on opposition members.

In an interview last week with CNN, Tsvangirai said he was concerned about the Chinese ship and feared that the weapons could be used to intimidate voters.

CNN's Wen-chun Fan in Beijing and Zain Verjee in Washington contributed to this report