Chinese Military,Political and Social Superthread

[OldSolduer]

But to be fair it was a Hydrogen Fuel Cell bus....

Which is still a big heavy vehicle capable of maiming a few.....

 

[WLSC]

I see one leader with a proven bad record, a lack of ethical behavior and suspicious CCP details.

I see another leader who hasn't done anything yet, but so far is generally saying the right things for me.

Agreed on the first one.

I still need to be convinced on the second.

On the Canadian spectrum, do you see someone that can create a concencus? I don’t.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Agreed on the first one.

I still need to be convinced on the second.

On the Canadian spectrum, do you see someone that can create a concencus? I don’t.

Well, there is one....

 

[Halifax Tar]

Agreed on the first one.

I still need to be convinced on the second.

On the Canadian spectrum, do you see someone that can create a concencus? I don’t.

Like I said, you don't have to vote Conservative, but you're still voting Liberal then I have to question your loyalties.

 

[Remius]

Like I said, you don't have to vote Conservative, but you're still voting Liberal then I have to question your loyalties.

That sort of talk is exactly what’s wrong right now.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That sort of talk is exactly what’s wrong right now.

If you're putting party before country, then yes I have to question your loyalties.

 

[dimsum]

Like I said, you don't have to vote Conservative, but you're still voting Liberal then I have to question your loyalties.

The problem I have with that statement is that I'm probably evenly split btwn LPC, CPC, and NDP in my beliefs. Probably exactly 1/3 each if I really sit down and think about it.

So, depending on the party platform and potentially the leader (who knows), I might vote LPC next election. I may vote NDP. I may vote CPC.

Right now though, and I've said this a few times, the CPC leader is just being an attack dog against the party in power. I get that it works and it has been his go-to for years, but it really makes me wonder what happens if the CPC wins? Will he stop the attacks because his party is in power? If he does, does he get called a "sell-out" by the CPC base? Will fear of that make him continue attacking...uh...someone? Will the CPC blame everything that goes wrong in a CPC govt on the LPC? Yes, the LPC did that with Harper but does that allow the CPC to do it with Trudeau?

Stuff like the above makes me wary of voting CPC at this point. If O'Toole had stayed on, it would become a really tough choice. I haven't even really delved into the party platform but as I said, there are parts of all their platforms/ideologies I like.

 

[Remius]

If you're putting party before country, then yes I have to question your loyalties.

To clarify, if someone votes Liberal they are putting the Liberal Party ahead of the country but if they vote for another one they aren’t?

 

[Good2Golf]

Yes, the LPC did that with Harper but does that allow the CPC to do it with Trudeau?

I think you mis-wrote the verb tense, dimsum.

It is not *unreasonable to ask the question “how much is enough?” as to how much complicity has to develop with an aggressively interfering foreign authoritarian state, before people ease on the demonization of a politician who by all accounts has the popular support of more than a third of the nation. To criticize the potential future modus operandi of one politician while accepting the not insignificant established record of ethical and divisively manipulative conduct of an other is some mental gymnastics that I and at least a few other Canadians have trouble wrapping our heads around.

*edit: darned double negative use to be gently positive.

 

[Halifax Tar]

To clarify, if someone votes Liberal they are putting the Liberal Party ahead of the country but if they vote for another one they aren’t?

With the track record of the current Liberal Gov and the strong likelihood of CCP influence yes I have to believe they are. Becuase I cannot understand how people can still support that party in its current iteration.

I can understand the left side of the spectrum, ive voted there. But not support for the LPC right now. If youre on the left vote NDP or Green.

The LPC needs to be sent to the hinterland to soul search and come back as the centrist party they need to be.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The problem I have with that statement is that I'm probably evenly split btwn LPC, CPC, and NDP in my beliefs. Probably exactly 1/3 each if I really sit down and think about it.

So vote NDP. You have two left thirds and one Con.

So, depending on the party platform and potentially the leader (who knows), I might vote LPC next election. I may vote NDP. I may vote CPC.

See above.

Right now though, and I've said this a few times, the CPC leader is just being an attack dog against the party in power. I get that it works and it has been his go-to for years, but it really makes me wonder what happens if the CPC wins? Will he stop the attacks because his party is in power? If he does, does he get called a "sell-out" by the CPC base? Will fear of that make him continue attacking...uh...someone? Will the CPC blame everything that goes wrong in a CPC govt on the LPC? Yes, the LPC did that with Harper but does that allow the CPC to do it with Trudeau?

I think there is a certain amount of time after an election where you are left with mess of the previous Gov. But after a year, its your problem now and you need to stop passing the buck. But thats just me.

Stuff like the above makes me wary of voting CPC at this point. If O'Toole had stayed on, it would become a really tough choice. I haven't even really delved into the party platform but as I said, there are parts of all their platforms/ideologies I like.

Like I said, vote NDP.

The platforms between the two (LPC and NDP) are similar.

 

[Remius]

With the track record of the current Liberal Gov and the strong likelihood of CCP influence yes I have to believe they are. Becuase I cannot understand how people can still support that party in its current iteration.

I could create a statement about the CPC or go in some left wing forum and copy paste a statement that would be eerily similar. Plenty of people can’t understand why anyone would support the CPC.

I can understand the left side of the spectrum, ive voted there. But not support for the LPC right now. If youre on the left vote NDP or Green.

I have an issue with defining people by their democratic choices. Telling them they are disloyal (or insert any negative descriptor) because of their democratic choice is part of the problem right now. Both on the right and the left.

 

[Remius]

So vote NDP. You have two left thirds and one Con.

Or how about you stop telling people how they should vote and let them decide.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I could create a statement about the CPC or go in some left wing forum and copy paste a statement that would be eerily similar. Plenty of people can’t understand why anyone would support the CPC.

You're absolutely correct.

I have an issue with defining people by their democratic choices. Telling them they are disloyal (or insert any negative descriptor) because of their democratic choice is part of the problem right now. Both on the right and the left.

I'm not defining them them individually, I am defining their democratic choice by their democratic choice. IMHO a vote to the LPC right now is willful ignorance.

We need a centerist LPC again. And we wont get that until they are soundly beaten and sent to regroup.

Or how about you stop telling people how they should vote and let them decide.

You mean like the ABC movement that took down Harper ?

Its a conversation... You need to relax. @dimsum will vote how they want regardless of what Halifax Tar has to say. All I am doing is defending my position and providing an alternative option.

 

[Remius]

You're absolutely correct.



I'm not defining them them individually, I am defining their democratic choice by their democratic choice. IMHO a vote to the LPC right now is willful ignorance.

We need a centerist LPC again. And we wont get that until they are soundly beaten and sent to regroup.

I don’t disagree. I also think we need a centrist CPC again. I don’t think the current people running that party are going that way just yet either.

You mean like the ABC movement that took down Harper ?

Not quite. But close. I have no problem with an ABC position or ABL position. It’s when accusations of disloyalty or anything else to define someone that gets inserted. “If you vote conservative you are clearly anti women and anti LGBT”. “If you vote NDP you clearly hate our military”. Absolutes only contribute to the sad state of discourse these days. People have a variety of reasons why they vote the way they do. And those reasons are no more invalid that yours or mine.

Its a conversation... You need to relax. @dimsum will vote how they want regardless of what Halifax Tar has to say. All I am doing is defending my position and providing an alternative option.

I’m very relaxed. It’s Friday. I am actually engaging you in this conversation because I think we can actually have a conversation. Of course he will. But you’ll have to understand that a statement like you made will elicit some discussion.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I don’t disagree. I also think we need a centrist CPC again. I don’t think the current people running that party are going that way just yet either.

I would position that the CPC is still close to the center, but the drift of the LPC to the left and away from it has skewed the view.

Not quite. But close. I have no problem with an ABC position or ABL position. It’s when accusations of disloyalty or anything else to define someone that gets inserted. “If you vote conservative you are clearly anti women and anti LGBT”. “If you vote NDP you clearly hate our military”. Absolutes only contribute to the sad state of discourse these days. People have a variety of reasons why they vote the way they do. And those reasons are no more invalid that yours or mine.

I sit where I sit. I've said many times JT and his followers are welcome around my fire. And I am also allowed to question them on the way I perceive their political position.

I’m very relaxed. It’s Friday. I am actually engaging you in this conversation because I think we can actually have a conversation. Of course he will. But you’ll have to understand that a statement like you made will elicit some discussion.

So then you understand that this is a discussion, but I am not supposed to provide and discuss alternatives to the LPC for left leaning folks, because that is telling people how to vote ?

 

[Remius]

I would position that the CPC is still close to the center, but the drift of the LPC to the left and away from it has skewed the view.

The drift left for the LPC is very real. While I think the CPC is maybe starting to move to the Center and might still even more when election time rolls up, it still has some way to go to satisfy centrists. In particular PC types (which I would loosely describe myself as) that don’t see much a place for them in the current iteration of the CPC.

I sit where I sit. I've said many times JT and his followers are welcome around my fire. And I am also allowed to question them on the way I perceive their political position.

No one said you weren’t allowed to question them.

So then you understand that this is a discussion, but I am not supposed to provide and discuss alternatives to the LPC for left leaning folks, because that is telling people how to vote ?

Not at all. By all means make your case. I do think though it’s unfair and misplaced to question their loyalty to country while doing so if they don’t agree with your position.

 

[QV]

It is not reasonable to ask the question “how much is enough?” as to how much complicity has to develop with an aggressively interfering foreign authoritarian state, before people ease on the demonization of a politician who by all accounts has the popular support of more than a third of the nation. To criticize the potential future modus operandi of one politician while accepting the not insignificant established record of ethical and divisively manipulative conduct of an other is some mental gymnastics that I and at least a few other Canadians have trouble wrapping our heads around.

This can’t be overstate.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It is not unreasonable to ask the question “how much is enough?” as to how much complicity has to develop with an aggressively interfering foreign authoritarian state, before people ease on the demonization of a politician who by all accounts has the popular support of more than a third of the nation. To criticize the potential future modus operandi of one politician while accepting the not insignificant established record of ethical and divisively manipulative conduct of an other is some mental gymnastics that I and at least a few other Canadians have trouble wrapping our heads around.

Very well put.

 

[WLSC]

Like I said, you don't have to vote Conservative, but you're still voting Liberal then I have to question your loyalties.

I won’t (and don’t remember if I ever did) voted red. I will probably have to vote eyes open and pinching my nose really hard. I hate that.