Challenger/"VIP" Jet/CF Chopper Use (CDS, others) [merged]

[McG]

I don't think it is unreasonable for the MND to stay at the hotel that a major Security Conference is taking place at and I think they were being fiscally conservative by ensuring the entire staff didn't stay there.

Actually, the article says the staff did stay in the same hotel.  Their rooms were more than $1,100 cheaper in that same hotel.

 

[2010newbie]

Actually, the article says the staff did stay in the same hotel.  Their rooms were more than $1,100 cheaper in that same hotel.

That's interesting. I was going from this article that states they stayed at the Hilton instead.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/rich/politics/story/2011/12/15/pol-mackay-hotels.html

The minister stayed at the Bayerischer Hof in central Munich at a rate of more than $1,400 per night. Receipts show his staff stayed at the Munich Park Hilton for a more modest rate of about $239 a night.

 

[The Bread Guy]

That's interesting. I was going from this article that states they stayed at the Hilton instead.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/rich/politics/story/2011/12/15/pol-mackay-hotels.html

Attached document from the Cdn Taxpayers' Federation seems to say the same thing:

-In Munich, staff stayed in a separate hotel for 158 EUR per night

 

[GAP]

Before everyone goes off the deep end like the MSM has, has anyone considered that McKay had a suite, not a room.....as in diplomatic/internal meetings, etc. ?

 

[Old Sweat]

Before everyone goes off the deep end like the MSM has, has anyone considered that McKay had a suite, not a room.....as in diplomatic/internal meetings, etc. ?

And that it was used for official business. Nah, he probably wanted it because it had a helipad and he could be hoisted up for a SAR exercise. Seriously, there probably were legitimate reasons, including preparations for sessions, security and national representational purposes.

 

[GAP]

And that it was used for official business. Nah, he probably wanted it because it had a helipad and he could be hoisted up for a SAR exercise. Seriously, there probably were legitimate reasons, including preparations for sessions, security and national representational purposes.

Oh...that would be the balcony by the pool....I wondered what the circles and crosshairs were for.....

 

[Edward Campbell]

At very high level meetings it is not uncommon for ministers and the like to be housed in pretty ritzy hotel suites or rented apartments - for the reasons Old Sweat noted: meetings and "representation." Some countries, the US for one, authorize different standards of accommodation based on rank grade and the standards for the "top grade" are very nice indeed. We were at a very high level international meeting in Japan nearly 20 years ago; the Canadian delegation (led by a DM equivalent) was housed in a very nice hotel - nice and pricey, too. We were visited by no less than three ministers over the course of a seven or eight week conference. Our Japanese hosts had rented a beautiful house for them, in a wonderful, park like setting; I forget what Canada paid for it but we had it for all eight weeks and - 20 years ago mind you - I'm quite certain we paid more than $1,000.00 per day so, maybe, $50,000 to $60,000 in all, and ministers, as I recall, used it for, maybe nine or ten nights in total. But it was a Liberal government and the media was less inclined to look at that sort of thing and, to be fair, organizations like the Canadian Taxpayers Federation were neither so active nor so well equipped to dig for dirt.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Before everyone goes off the deep end like the MSM has, has anyone considered that McKay had a suite, not a room.....as in diplomatic/internal meetings, etc. ?

Man, I would HOPE it was a suite for that kind of cash!

Seriously, there probably were legitimate reasons, including preparations for sessions, security and national representational purposes.

If that's the case, we'll be hearing this shortly I'd expect.

 

[CountDC]

A $1,400.00 per night room does seem a tad pricey when we are looking for big, Big, BIG savings in DND's operating budget.

um, not really.  In the finance world we always called this nickle and diming.  $3k out of billions doesn't even make a ripple.

 

[benny88]

At very high level meetings it is not uncommon for ministers and the like to be housed in pretty ritzy hotel suites or rented apartments - for the reasons Old Sweat noted: meetings and "representation." Some countries, the US for one, authorize different standards of accommodation based on rank grade and the standards for the "top grade" are very nice indeed. We were at a very high level international meeting in Japan nearly 20 years ago; the Canadian delegation (led by a DM equivalent) was housed in a very nice hotel - nice and pricey, too. We were visited by no less than three ministers over the course of a seven or eight week conference. Our Japanese hosts had rented a beautiful house for them, in a wonderful, park like setting; I forget what Canada paid for it but we had it for all eight weeks and - 20 years ago mind you - I'm quite certain we paid more than $1,000.00 per day so, maybe, $50,000 to $60,000 in all, and ministers, as I recall, used it for, maybe nine or ten nights in total. But it was a Liberal government and the media was less inclined to look at that sort of thing and, to be fair, organizations like the Canadian Taxpayers Federation were neither so active nor so well equipped to dig for dirt.

    I don't see any problems with high-ranking officers and officials staying and travelling in luxury at times. Lots of these flag and general officers and other public servants are very competent and experienced leaders, and could make a lot of of cash in the private sector, where they WOULD be getting these perks, and probably on a grander scale. It's not outrageous that they be treated in accordance with their station.
    Of course everything should be within reason, but a Defence Minister at an international conference shouldn't have to worry about getting his wee-wee slapped for not staying in the Best Western.

 

[Edward Campbell]

um, not really.  In the finance world we always called this nickle and diming.  $3k out of billions doesn't even make a ripple.

That's one of the (many, many) reasons sensible cost containment was so bloody difficult in DND. Too many people, from no hook privates to four stars, didn't (evidently still don't) "sweat" the nickles and dimes, not even when they became dollars, then hundreds of thousands of dollars.

"March madness" procurement was the biggest bane of our existence; people, up to and including one stars believed that if they didn't spend ALL there money in a FY they would get less the next year; it was totally, 100% untrue but the BS rumour had, maybe still has legs - my then boss, a two star stopped it in our group by the simple expedient of telling his one stars that he would watch year end spending and "march madness" would be "rewarded" with a "no bonus" recommendation! Worked like a charm. We watched the nickles and dimes and the big stuff and we "saved" millions and tens of millions which we could then spend on things the fleets (naval and air) and field forces needed. 

 

[Kirkhill]

Some comments:

the early reports discussed two separate meetings - one where some/all/the staff stayed in the same hotel but in lower priced accomodations, the other where some/all/the staff stayed off-site in lower priced accomodations

it is noteworthy that the minister "probably" required an on-site meeting space for his staff, even if he only brought a TAC equivalency

it is "likely" that security considerations impacted on where the Minister was "required" to stay.  I'm guessing the host nation had a say in matters.  Alternately the Minister could have stayed in the local Notel Motel and had the services of a local security platoon charged against his account.

it is "likely" that convenience played a role in the selection process, thereby allowing the Minister to meet with the other assembled Ministers well into the 24 hour news cycle.

it is "likely" that prestige/face played a role in the selection process:  Sure Secretary Gates, love to see you.  I'm just round the corner at Motel 6.  Beer and cheezies in the fridge.  Just give me a moment to straighten the bed.


I've long since added Craig Oliver, Bob Fyfe and CTV to my personal hate/ignore list.  They are determined to dribble out this crap in $3000 spews until they get a scalp.....

I call BS.

 

[The Bread Guy]

For the record, here's what the Defence Minister had to say during Question Period Thursday on the issue:

Mr. Speaker, Canada has certainly earned its seat at the international table when it comes to discussions like we had at the Munich security conference. This conference was held in Germany. As to the expenses that the member is referring to, Canada books rooms at the same hotel where the conference takes place, where the majority of participants stay. Nation to nation meetings at conferences such as this advance the interests of Canada and advance the interests of the hard-working men and women who serve our country around the world. I was proud to represent Canada at that conference.

 

[OldSolduer]

Some comments:


I've long since added Craig Oliver, Bob Fyfe and CTV to my personal hate/ignore list.  They are determined to dribble out this crap in $3000 spews until they get a scalp.....

I call BS.

Craig Oliver has a real hate on for the PM - its very obvious but people eat it up anyways.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Craig Oliver has a real hate on for the PM - its very obvious but people eat it up anyways.

Him or MacKay.  They seem to be on the war path and will not be satisfied until they have nailed a scalp to the totem pole.  The political hacks that haunt the hill don't seem to know how to be a reporter anymore.  They all want to make the news so it would seem and have lost any and all objectivity.

 

[OldSolduer]

Him or MacKay.  They seem to be on the war path and will not be satisfied until they have nailed a scalp to the totem pole.  The political hacks that haunt the hill don't seem to know how to be a reporter anymore.  They all want to make the news so it would seem and have lost any and all objectivity.

Plus Craig Oliver is butt ugly - and venomous in his attacks.

 

[GAP]

Plus Craig Oliver is butt ugly - and venomous in his attacks.

Oliver has and still is a rampant Liberal. Always will be. It grates him that the CPC is in and doing well.....oh, and add Tabor to that list.

 

[The Bread Guy]

New target:  the Associate Minister (don't be shy about downloading the full parliamentary document - even if it is almost 3MB in size)....

Remember all the hot fuss last year about Defence Minister Peter MacKay taking a Canadian Forces search-and-rescue helicopter back from a fishing holiday in Atlantic Canada the Maritimes?

At the height of the fury, the Liberal research bureau tabled an order paper question for all ministerial flights aboard all government aircraft — including helicopters, not just the Challenger jet flight logs to which we’ve grown accustomed to lavishing with taxpayer outrage.

The response from the Department of National Defence, tabled Friday and posted below, reveals that MacKay took other helio flights around the same time. All on government business, of course.

But the first item on the list is also interesting: July 17, 2011, and new associate defence minister Julian Fantino travelled aboard a Griffon helicopter between Ottawa and the Canadian Forces Base in Petawawa, Ontario.

It is unclear from the information provided upon which of the there and back legs Fantino flew.  Three weeks earlier, Fantino was in Khandahar to celebrate Canada Day with the troops, so it’s possible this was the final flight of his trip home.

Depending on traffic, that’s usually a two-hour drive up Highway 17. By helicopter, I’d put it at an hour each way 20 minutes.

The cost of the short ride is pegged at $5,913.60.

Fantino’s office says he was participating in a “demonstration of military capabilities” at the invitation of the Forces ....

Ottawa Citizen, 6 Feb 12

 

[Good2Golf]

*sigh*

The Associate Minter was travelling on official business from NDHQ to CFB Petawawa, so why not see what 427 Squadron does at the same time as he travels up to the base and back?  Furthermore, neither the Petawawa heliport nor the Pembroke airport have a precision approach (ILS - instrument landing system), so each and every pilot at 427 Squadron must travel at least as far as Ottawa several times a year to conduct their precision approach minimums.

At some point, the press may stop demonizing those who at least ensure that RCAF/CF assets are used to the greatest effect, including collateral training of the crew while conducting other missions (transport included) where possible.  It would be very interesting for the media to look beyond partisan targeting and actually conduct an analysis of DND aircraft over a longer period, say 30 years....actually, let's make it 40 years, to capture a wide representation of governmental officials' travels and determine who the greatest non-CF/military user of DND aircraft was....  :nod:

Folks are still not understanding the all-up flying costs, which include fixed costs such as pilot, maintainer and supporter salaries, maintenance contracts for time-based repair activities, cost of the associated infrastructure, hangars, fuel supply maintenance (tanks, fuel trucks, etc...), navigational aids, etc... required to support flying operations.  So let's look at things differently, since the media seems unable (or unwilling) to put a bit more analysis into the "cost per hour" issue.

The cost factors manual states all-up CH146 Griffon costs at $5,900/hr. [Quoted in the Citizen article]

Let's assume a CH146 Griffon  burns 720 lbs/hr, or 380 L/hr.  At $1.25/L, the Griffon therefore burns $475/hr.  The non-flying related fixed cost portion of the $5,900/hr = 5900 - 475 = $5,425. 

So to NOT fly an hour in the Griffon actually costs $5,425 per hour not flown.

Notice how this doesn't make a lot of sense?  That's because reporters take a number (which is thoroughly and accurately defined by its component costings within the CF Cost Factors Manual that the media ATI'd) but use it inappropriately...out of context.  The reporter(s) fail to inform the readers that the full-up costs were really composed of 8.1% incremental costs that vary as, in this case, the Griffon is flown per hour, and 91.9% of the costs that are fixed, whether the aircraft flies (with Minister MacKay, Associate Minister Fantino, PM Harper, Leader of the Opposition Turmel, etc...) or just sits on the ground not being flown.

It sound a lot more dramatic to imply (for it is not factually or contextually accurate) that Associate Minister Fantino incrementally cost the taxpayers $5900 with his Ottawa-Petawawa flight.

Not that it would get the reporter a Christmas card from the Government's Official Opposition Party, but I'm sure many Canadians would find a news piece on an analysis and/or breakdown of those "confusing hourly costs" of DND aircraft rather interesting and informative. 


Regards
G2G 

 

[dimsum]

G2G:  Sounds like something that an *ahem* anonymous person can put on the comment boards of a few national newspapers.