CH-148 Cyclone Progress

[Haletown]

So now I am very curious . . .  what has changed ?? Increased scope ??  Change of scope?  New mission req's ??

Earlier in this thread it was stated the first aircraft was delivered to Florida in August and would be ready for flight deck testing on HMCS Montreal in early 08.  So I'm guessing the aircraft part of the puzzle is basically good to go.

That would leave me to guess mission equipment/sensor package.  Anyone know what's going  on ??  Wouldn't be the first time we wanted some very unique "Canadianized" stuff instead of buying off the shelf and adapting doctrine to the equipment  -  but I'm just guessing

The PMO knows . . .  we will find out eventually.

 

[Zoomie]

I wonder if the fact that we are the only customer of the militarized version of this helicopter has slowed down the process some-what.  Our ship-borne helos require folding heads and booms - the civilian choppers don't.  Has this technical aspect made the design too complicated and they are only realizing it now?

 

[Inch]

I wonder if the fact that we are the only customer of the militarized version of this helicopter has slowed down the process some-what.  Our ship-borne helos require folding heads and booms - the civilian choppers don't.  Has this technical aspect made the design too complicated and they are only realizing it now?

It can't be that complicated, the Sea King folds and it was designed in the 50's. The new SH60R/S Seahawks have a working fold system, I don't see why it would be that complicated to engineer one for the Cyclone when Sikorsky has been building shipborne helos for 50+ years. I would suspect it has more to do with the untested stand alone fly-by-wire system, but I can't say for sure.

 

[Zoomie]

I would suspect it has more to do with the untested stand alone fly-by-wire system, but I can't say for sure.

Interesting...  Does the civilian version not have similar control systems?

 

[hippie]

Interesting...  Does the civilian version not have similar control systems?

Negatron.  The H-92 is the only version of this airframe that has FBW.  For now anyways..  Who knows, maybe once all the kinks are worked out, some of the civie operators may want FBW..  It's entirely possible that the system integration part of it is a big challenge as well.  Maybe Baz can shed some light on this.

 

[Inch]

Interesting...  Does the civilian version not have similar control systems?

As Hippie stated, that's a big negatron good buddy. The S-92 has conventional rods and cables connecting the servos to the flight controls, the H-92 will be a stand alone FBW system with no mechanical linkage or backup. It's never been done before, sure there are FBW helos out there, but they all have a mechanical backup to my knowledge.

 

[Kirkhill]

It's never been done before........

Oh My!!!

 

[cameron]

As much as I like the Cyclone, and I do, for reasons of safety wouldn't it be better to have mechanical backup?

 

[Haletown]

I recall the EH 101 had an experimental FBY system in 2005/6 but I don't think it ever went into production.  It was called HEAT or something like that.

This Cyclone delay is very curious. 

If it is the FBY system, I wonder if it has anything to do with the NRC's role in the joint development with Sikorsky of the original test-bed FBY technology for the H-92 back in 2005.

"Sikorsky and NRC Aerospace win award for helicopter Fly-by-Wire flight control system

Flight tests using NRC Bell 412 airborne simulator demonstrate significant reductions in pilot workload


Paris, June 13, 2005 — Sikorsky Aircraft and the National Research Council of Canada Institute for Aerospace Research (NRC Aerospace) have received the 2005 American Helicopter Society (AHS) Gruppo Agusta International Helicopter Fellowship award for their achievements in developing advanced Fly-by-Wire (FBW) flight control laws. The international collaboration resulted in the development of an advanced FBW flight control system for the Sikorsky H-92 helicopter that incorporates automatic load limiting control. The advanced control laws were implemented on the NRC Aerospace Bell 412 in-flight simulator, and flight tests were conducted that successfully demonstrated significant reductions in main rotor hub loads during aggressive manoeuvring with no effect on pilot handling qualities. The award was presented at the 61st AHS Annual Forum and Technology Display in Grapevine, Texas on June 2nd, 2005."

http://iar-ira.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/press/news_1_24_e.html


The lack of details coming out makes me think there is some CYA going on . . .  again, just a hunch.

 

[Kirkhill]

National Research Council of Canada Institute for Aerospace Research (NRC Aerospace)

Oh My!!!!!

 

[GK .Dundas]

Oh goodie ! Brand spankin' new state o' the art cutting edge technology which an engineer friend of mine translates as the ability to burn 100 dollar bills  by the bucketful  while developing ulcers when working out the bugs with the added excitement of discovering new and interesting ways of killing yourself ....and your coworkers and innocent bystanders etc... etc.....................
I'm hoping that it will all work out and they'll be able to get the the program back on track.But this is what happens when you let military procurement programs be run almost purely for the political gain of the government of the day.   

 

[Haletown]

Gen Hillier on TV yesterday, commenting on the delay.

42 minute mark

http://www.cbc.ca/video/popup.html?http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/politics/politics_thu.wmv

 

[Haletown]

so here's a potential clue . . .  from Sikorsky

"Sikorsky Aircraft Helicopter With Fly-by-Wire Completes Flawless First Flight
News Category: [Aerospace] [Aviation][Defence-Air]

STRATFORD, Conn., Dec. 21, 2007 - The first H-92(r) helicopter to feature fly-by-wire technology has completed its first successful flight, Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. announced today. Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE:UTX).

The historic first flight took place on Dec. 20 at 9 a.m. from the Sikorsky Development Flight Center in West Palm Beach, Florida. The new fly-by-wire technology is designed to significantly improve aircraft maneuverability, safety and effectiveness. Sikorsky currently has two development programs which will feature the FBW technology, the X-2 Technology(tm) demonstrator, and the newest model of the BLACK HAWK helicopter, the UH-60M.

"This successful flight of the first H-92 helicopter to feature state-of-the-art fly-by-wire technology ushers in a new era for the H-92 product line," said Stephen B. Estill, Sikorsky vice president & chief marketing officer. "This aircraft was the first of a new generation of helicopters designed to new and more demanding standards for safety and reliability, and with fly-by-wire, it sets course for the path ahead and the next phase of flight testing in 2008.""

http://www.asd-network.com/press_detail/14597/Sikorsky_Aircraft_Helicopter_With_Fly-by-Wire_Completes_Flawless_First_Flight.htm



So could it be that the H-92 is being used by Sikorsky, with our encouragement & NRC R&D invlovement, as the development platform for the  FBY for the X-2 and the next gen UH-60M Blackhawk and Canada, after seeing the successful first flight, has now requested an Engineering Change to include it on our Cyclones ??

Don't know for sure,  but it's plausible.  The  next phase of flight testing in 2008.  line could explain the +30 months on the sched

 

[Inch]

So could it be that the H-92 is being used by Sikorsky, with our encouragement & NRC R&D invlovement, as the development platform for the  FBY for the X-2 and the next gen UH-60M Blackhawk and Canada, after seeing the successful first flight, has now requested an Engineering Change to include it on our Cyclones ??

Don't know for sure,  but it's plausible.   The  next phase of flight testing in 2008.  line could explain the +30 months on the sched

Huh? The Cyclone was always going to have it, what do you think an H-92 is? H-92 = CH148 Cyclone

 

[Haletown]

yes I know the UH-60/S-92/H-92/Cyclone heritage.

If the Cyclone/H-92 was always going have FBY,  why does Sikorsky say only TWO programs  - the X-2 demonstrator and the UH-60M are being designed with FBY.

There is a disconnect somewhere.

What is the source for your information that it was always part of the plan ?? 


Maybe somebody in Ottawa forget to tell Sikorsky we wanted the FBY option included  :-*

 

[Inch]

My source is the multiple briefings we've had here at 12 Wing from Sikorsky as well as one of the test pilots currently in West Palm Beach.

If the X-2 and UH-60M are the only two programs, why is it being tested on an H-92? Does that make any sense?

 

[Haletown]

interesting.  No mention that I can find of FBY in any other place except what your are being briefed on.  Do you recall if FBY was in the original briefs or has it crept into the briefs as the program went on ?



wrt the H-92 as a test bed . . it could make sense since neither the X-2 or UH-60M are flying yet, they need something to use for flight testing and would make sense if Sikorsky found a partner/program to pay for/share the development $$/risks.

Wouldn't ya think if FBY  was part of the package from day 1 both DND & Sikorsky would be shouting form the rooftops ?? After all this is an industry first and there are bragging rights here.  I can't find any references in the procurement decision phase about including a significant aviation first in the program.

I'm still thinking there is much more to this story and the fact that everyone is being tight lipped about WHY they need 30 more months is very suspicious.  When PMO's & politicians go silent & run for cover there is  a story to be told.

We'll find out eventually.

bty . . keep up the great work on the Project . . the wait will be  worth it and the kit will be much appreciated I'm sure.

 

[Inch]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't in our statement of requirements, but as far as I can remember, this has been in the works for at least a couple years.

There isn't a -60M flying yet, but there are plenty of H-60's out there to try it out on.

 

[hippie]

interesting.  No mention that I can find of FBY in any other place except what your are being briefed on.  Do you recall if FBY was in the original briefs or has it crept into the briefs as the program went on ?

I was at the west coast decision brief in 2004 at 443 Sqn, and it was mentioned there that it was to be FBW.  I can't remember specific examples, but I BELIEVE it was part of the H-92 pitch before it was selected for the MHP.  Plus every bit of correspondence that I have read and the presentations I have seen has always referred to FBW.  I'm no engineer, all I do is stir the sticks, but as Inch has eluded to, it's a stand alone system, so I can imagine it will be a challenge to develop and implement.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

It was also based on the flight system for the cancelled US army Commanche, so Sikorsky was not exactly starting from scratch here.