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CF "seducing and preying" upon Canadian Youth - News Clip

I won't go deeply into the relative merits of the Cadet program.  Pound for pound, I do feel that compared to other kid's programs in Canada, it's the best one we've got going.  I base this on personal experiences with 4-H, Cubs/Scouts, Boys & Girls clubs, Brownies/Girl Scouts, dance organizations and a large number of sport's teams.  This is the rub and where people who are unaware of the aims and goals of a particular organization will believe whatever they're told in the absence of the actual facts. 

For example, I've run into people who believe that Cadets is a form of 'Hitler Youth'.  They know nothing about the program.  All they know is the kids wear a uniform, it's obviously connected with the military, the military is bad because they start wars usually over oil, war is total evil along with oil, fight against evil and save the planet, therefore these kids and what they're doing is evil incarnate.  Hey, it's their opinion and when I come across people like that I try to open their minds and educate them.  Usually, it doesn't work because they're so closed minded and nothing will sink in but at least I've tried to correct some obvious fallacies.

Organizations like the military and cadets do very poorly historically at selling themselves to the public at large.  Having a gag policy placed on you by hostile governments obviously doesn't help plus nowadays people don't blindly follow authority the way they used to.  But it does not work to bury your head in the sand and keep quiet while the wingnuts spout their nonsense.  I've seen it in other industries where they've tried to ignore the crackpots and unfortunately it becomes a case of whoever shouts the loudest must be telling the truth.  People are too busy in today's world to actively dig for information and either tune out or have been conditioned to receive a steady stream of 30 second sound bites.  You've got to really work at making sure that your message is heard.

For example, we had people believing that the military here in Comox was seeding the atmosphere to create clouds to combat global warming.  They would see a plane (usually civilian but what do they know) fly overhead, leave trails of 'smoke' that would occasionally spread out as larger clouds.  The Base Commander, who is excellent at responding to local concerns, correctly pointed out the physics of the phenomenon and offered to have the public come and inspect for themselves all the military craft on base for evidence of cloud seeding equipment.

It's ironic that the Canadian military with all it's conventional might and power has such difficulty in defending itself when it comes to public opinion.  Of course with a friendlier government in place that is allowing the military to get the word out, I see this changing for the better. 

The military and cadet organizations need to continuously let the taxpayers know all the good that they are doing.  Hucksterism, no!  Just tell the truth and be proud of what you're doing and why you're doing it.  We from within all know the truth.  We're not the ones who need convincing about the good that we do.  It's the general public who needs a balanced story and with a little education, the majority of people are smart enough to see who's making the most sense.
 
This woman was in the paper here in the Fall when her son was getting ready to go on 0107. She was just as adamant then and she stated that she loves her son but they agree to disagree on this. she is a member of the peace movement in the Valley and is taking advantage of the media in order to make her point. I think she probably is scared for the safety of her son as most mothers are but I'm not sure that is her prime motivation. As others have stated, we serve so that she has the freedom to say and believe what she wants to. I thank God that we live in a country in which she will not have to fear the police arriving at her door in the night to take her off to prison for anti-social or anti-government beliefs.

the Peaceniks got 90 people out to their protest here in Halifax last week....whoop te doo....it hardly deserved the two pages of coverage it got in the Chronicle Herald but they too have freedom.
given the large military presence here in Halifax and the Veteran population I doubt that this was something that a large proportion of their readership enjoyed. I personally skimmed it and went on to other things.  ::)
 
My understanding of the lack of Scout funding is that it is a choice by Scouts Canada, as well as the Scouting organization in the US.  Not receiving funding allows considerable freedom of management.  I was able to find some instances through Google of funding, but they were for specific, shared programs, or for the Francophone version of the Scouts.

Even with the closures of camps for the Scouts in the last few years, I have a hard time thinking they will change what seems to be a well thought out policy of not receiving Government funding.
 
I had two kids go through Cadets.  Both joined almost the minute they turned 12 (their choice), and both aged out, one as DSM, one as RSM.  They worked hard, they had fun, they learned respect, discipline, commitment to their community, leadership, and made some amazing friends that, even years later, they still have.  Some have chosen the Military, some have not, but they have all become fine citizens, and I am extremely proud of all of them.  As a parent, I can't say enough good about Cadets.
 
KwaiLo said:
My understanding of the lack of Scout funding is that it is a choice by Scouts Canada, as well as the Scouting organization in the US.  Not receiving funding allows considerable freedom of management.  I was able to find some instances through Google of funding, but they were for specific, shared programs, or for the Francophone version of the Scouts.

Even with the closures of camps for the Scouts in the last few years, I have a hard time thinking they will change what seems to be a well thought out policy of not receiving Government funding.

No, Boy Scouts of America (BSA), the American scouting movement, is tied rather closely with the US Army, and USMC (info from an American friend).  They are more of a combination of out scouts and cadets.  Scouts in the UK if  remember correctly also have close ties with there forces.
 
Taking this further away from the NS Mom whose son is in A'Stan...

Scouts Canada are so far removed from the traditional role of scouting, that a counter-group has stood up, here in BC anyway.

The Baden-Powell Scouts Association is dedicated to returning scouting to it's original paramilitary form, with quite explicit roles for religion, no females, and other "traditional" hallmarks of the Boer War inspired movement.

DF
 
ParaMedTech said:
Taking this further away from the NS Mom whose son is in A'Stan...

Scouts Canada are so far removed from the traditional role of scouting, that a counter-group has stood up, here in BC anyway.

The Baden-Powell Scouts Association is dedicated to returning scouting to it's original paramilitary form, with quite explicit roles for religion, no females, and other "traditional" hallmarks of the Boer War inspired movement.

DF

PBSA can tell you what they wish and they've been around for years...ever since well...women in the Scout movement.

Nope, it's all about the fact that this woman here (ie me)...is in there teaching orienteering, fieldcraft, to male and female Scouts. Egads. Of course there are no women out in the world who are qualified to do that, or who can not interpret pictures of butterflies and Boer War Forts rolled into one while out on our latest route recce etc. Have no doubt in your mind that's what it's about. But that's a tangent of course.
 
Librarian, that's interesting (as in kinda makes you hmmmmm), and news to me.

Certainly NOT what I was told when I was approached to help them set up in BC...but I got a hincky feeling about the guys and bowed out after 2 meetings with just leadership.

DF
 
mil said:
I had two kids go through Cadets.  Both joined almost the minute they turned 12 (their choice), and both aged out, one as DSM, one as RSM.  They worked hard, they had fun, they learned respect, discipline, commitment to their community, leadership, and made some amazing friends that, even years later, they still have.  Some have chosen the Military, some have not, but they have all become fine citizens, and I am extremely proud of all of them.  As a parent, I can't say enough good about Cadets.

I second that Mil, as a Mother myself my daughter is 7 years old. I hope that she will always make positive choices in life, and work hard for her future. A few Christmas' ago, the Cadets hosted an outing at our local Legion here. They were very respectful and left a lasting impression on me, and even had Santa there. The Cadets were also handing out goodie bags to all the children that were in attendance. They really did a super job. It turns out that is one of my daughters first pictures with Santa.

There is only one thing that I can hope for, when I read this article. And if the Mother that is featured in this article ever happens to come across army.ca to do some reading of her own, as I have seen many posts from other parents that do have thier kids Deployed... I can only hope for one thing and that is to wish her son a safe tour, and a safe return home to their family along with the rest of the soldiers that he may be serving with.

~Rebecca
 
beatdeadhorse.gif

But I can not say enough good about the Air/Army/Sea Cadet programs.  Or, Scouting or any other Youth Organization that promotes leadership, teamwork and community awareness.  I think because of the schrinking numbers in most youth orgs., the school boards in Ontario and out East have installed a 40 hours of community service before Graduation.  Kudos to Teachers for doing this! :salute:
Back in Greenwood the Air Cadets built and manned a Haunted House for the kiddies at Hallowe'en.  Proceeds went to thier general operating budget.  Cadets also helped out at Santa time.  Ran bottle drives and cleaned up the roadside. 
I was a cadet. 
The Cadets of today are: polite! energetic, clean-cut, community minded, well spoken, upstanding future citizens. More and more and on and on. 
Are they "bad" citizens??
Are they Brainwashed?
I think not. As I've posted previously, cadets opened my eyes to the big scarey world and gave me an outlook on life and a path to follow.
This lady has her opinion adn is worried about her son.  Maybe she should have brainwashed him when he was younger away from things military?!
I Stand!  :cdn:
 
ParaMedTech said:
Taking this further away from the NS Mom whose son is in A'Stan...

Scouts Canada are so far removed from the traditional role of scouting, that a counter-group has stood up, here in BC anyway.

The Baden-Powell Scouts Association is dedicated to returning scouting to it's original paramilitary form, with quite explicit roles for religion, no females, and other "traditional" hallmarks of the Boer War inspired movement.

DF

Its all fine and dandy till a girl wants to join. 

But your right with Scouts Canada, they are as far away from scouting as you can be and still use the name scouting.  But that will change  >:D Mohahahaha  ;D
 
Here she is live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89Q9IBL58j4

EDIT: I don't agree with what she is saying but I do admire her articulateness, and her understanding of the situation.
 
There's an interesting column in today's Halifax Daily News which addresses this topic extremely well.  I'll paste it below, as Daily News links tend to expire...the usual "Fair Dealings/Copyright Act" stuff.

http://www.hfxnews.ca/index.cfm?sid=18157&sc=93

Criticism of cadets unfounded
Program doesn't 'seduce' young people into military

JOHN BOILEAU
The Daily News

I see that Andria Hill-Lehr is at it again. She's the Valley mom who's been complaining vociferously for the past year to anyone who will listen about the deployment of her son - 23-year-old reserve infantryman Cpl. Garrow Hill-Stosky - to Afghanistan.

In her latest verbal assaults, she makes the outlandish claims that the military are seducing impressionable youth into the Armed Forces before they have the ability to think critically. In particular, she accuses the cadet organization of teaching its members to follow, when they should be learning to think for themselves.

Hill-Lehr - who was formerly married to a military man and whose father was in the army during the Second World War - feels the words brainwashing and indoctrination have lost their emphasis today. She prefers to use the word "seduction" to describe how the Forces get young people to join.

Apparently, she's even writing a book about it.

Yes, young people do join cadets - it is a youth program, after all. And cadets do advertise for kids to join - as do several other organizations. That is hardly grounds for general and unsubstantiated criticism of the program.

No one may become a cadet without their parents' or guardians' signed permission, so it is ultimately the adults who decide if their children may join. Parents are encouraged to become aware of the program before their child joins, and informed they are expected to provide support, from assistance with fund-raising to transportation for training nights, sports and other events.

Half the picture

Since her son was 14 when he joined cadets, I can only assume that Hill-Lehr gave her permission and signed his forms to let him become a cadet in the first place. That is hardly the "seduction" she would have us believe takes place.

Hill-Lehr's claims that cadets are taught to follow presents only half the picture. In any organized program, there are followers and leaders. Before someone can be a leader, they must learn to be a follower. Contrary to her contention, the first stated aim of cadets is to develop leadership, and cadets progress up the leadership chain as they learn.

According to the vast majority of parents of the 58,000 boys and girls in cadets across the country, the cadets are doing a pretty good job at it. And there is absolutely no doubt that being in cadets has prevented many young people from developing into problem teens.

The instructors who teach cadets are members of the Cadet Instructor Cadre, a separate component of the Forces. They are not even trained as fighters, but as youth leaders.

Cadets are not members of the Canadian Forces, nor are they expected or coerced to join. As Capt. Hope Carr, the public-affairs officer for the Atlantic regional cadet organization, explains: "When a child joins hockey at the age of 10, it would be a leap of logic to assume that he has to become an NHL player as an adult. The same is true of the cadets."

It should be mentioned that some cadets do later enrol in the Forces - but many more pursue other vocations. Whatever career path former cadets follow, I firmly believe they will be better people for having been in cadets.

Conflicted

While Hill-Lehr obviously loves her son and is concerned about him, it seems to me she's a conflicted mom. She has a son who's gone from cadets to the reserves to an operational deployment - yet her statements make it clear she's anti-military. He's in a combat zone - but she's obviously a pacifist. He's in Afghanistan voluntarily - and she doesn't support the Canadian Forces' presence there.

It's just a slightly different take on the old story of the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.

I'm sure Hill-Lehr doesn't fully appreciate the possible harm she is doing to her son by her continuous harping. At a time when he most needs the support of his family, her criticisms can only be distracting and demoralizing.

That's not really the way you want someone to feel when they're in a situation where the risk of injury or death is a constant concern.

Hill-Lehr has every right to make her opinions known whenever and wherever she wants to. I just can't help feeling it would be a whole lot better if she held them back until her son returns home safely in June.

johnboileau@eastlink.ca

For the record, John Boileau supports cadets, the Canadian Forces and our mission in Afghanistan.
 
Thank you for the link.  Obviously this lady is very articulate, charismatic and cares deeply about her family, her country and other people's well being.  Though she is admirable for these qualities, she reminds me of a multitude of very nice people I know who are quite naive as to how large chunks of the world work and act.  These people figure the world's problems can be solved with hugs, 'tut tuts, everyone play nice now' and supporting women's groups who are somehow inherently the saviours of us all.  Don't get me wrong, hat's off to the women's group mentioned in the video but I'm guessing that just handing over a few million dollars to their cause isn't going to cure all the ills of their country.

Sliding briefly to the cadet slant here in this thread, I do blame some of this naivety on the military and the cadet organizations themselves.  Our particular squadron does a very poor job of integrating the parents and their concerns with their children's activities.  It's a foreign world to them.

Back to Ms. Hill-Lehr, maybe she should read books like Gen Dallaire's account of Rwanda or what happened to our soldiers in Medak pocket in the former Yugoslavia.  I'm guessing that shaking hands with the Devil is very distasteful when you have no other choice.  People should count themselves lucky that they've only witnessed evil through television and not first hand.

People like Ms. Hill-Lehr will be listened to and will gather momentum in the absence of information to the contrary.  These folks have legitimate concerns that shouldn't be pooh-poohed and they should not be ignored or ridiculed.  Rather, if possible, they need to be educated so that they can make a more informed decision.
 
as much as I like what you said, I fear that with a lot of these people, they have committed to a view point, and will not accept any other view point no matter how much you try to educate them, I'm sure her son has tried.

We must make sure our view point is expressed however to counteract these people, something the forces at large has a horrible track record of, we need to win the hearts and minds of our countrymen as well as those we are trying to help abroad.
 
c_canuk said:
as much as I like what you said, I fear that with a lot of these people, they have committed to a view point, and will not accept any other view point no matter how much you try to educate them, I'm sure her son has tried.

We must make sure our view point is expressed however to counteract these people, something the forces at large has a horrible track record of, we need to win the hearts and minds of our countrymen as well as those we are trying to help abroad.

Exactly!
People committed to this viewpoint make very emotional "easy sell" remarks and the Government and the  forces take a black eye.

The good news, I think is that (In my opinion ) the current events we have been
rivetted to for the last year or so have raised the stature of the CF.
I think Canadians are more aware than they have been in a long time.

The current government and the Army itself has stayed on message and looked pretty good.

Still, obviously there is a very long way to go.






 
Just a slight historical aside. If this lady is promoting the benefits of Scouting has she done any research into Baden Powells carear in South Africa. There are plenty of those from Boer descent who do not look upon him as the great humanitarian most of the Canada public has been conditioned to believe.

"But Baden-Powell’s censors took good care to ensure that no reports of the real plight of Africans in Mafeking reached the outside world during the siege. Starving Africans never became part of a public discourse."

Source:

KREBS,PAULA M. , Gender, Race and the Writing of Empire: public discourse and the Boer War Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.1999
 
3rd Herd said:
Just a slight historical aside. If this lady is promoting the benefits of Scouting has she done any research into Baden Powells carear in South Africa. There are plenty of those from Boer descent who do not look upon him as the great humanitarian most of the Canada public has been conditioned to believe.

"But Baden-Powell’s censors took good care to ensure that no reports of the real plight of Africans in Mafeking reached the outside world during the siege. Starving Africans never became part of a public discourse."

Source:

KREBS,PAULA M. , Gender, Race and the Writing of Empire: public discourse and the Boer War Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.1999

I don't think she gives a hoot about scouting. She is a peace activist who doesn't like the military. She was trying to say that the Government funds cadets because they brainwash kids to join the military. Her point was that she thinks they should fund non militaristic group like the scouts....brownies etc.
She is wrong but she won't be convince by the likes of you and I....warmongers and aggressors. Oh well it takes all kinds. ;)
 
I think she makes some good points. There is no doubt that the military targets youth by advertising in theatres. And there is also no doubt that many of these impressionable youths aren't fully capable of grasping what joining the military means (there is evidence that the human brain is not fully developed until you are in your early 20s). Furthermore, as the military is the embodiment of the federal government's monopoly on the legitimate use of force (aside from municipal and provincial police) I think its method of advertisng should be examined and if need be, questioned. I think the comparisons to ads for hair products are a bit misguided. This is our government people. Face it, until the day that raw combat footage from Afghanistan is used in recruiting ads, military advertising will be glamourous when compared to reality.

That being said, I personally don't have a problem with these ads, in fact I enjoy them as I support the military. And its not as if the average grown man has a good idea of what to expect when he joins the military or sees combat either. Its just one of those things you have to participate in directly to understand, so I don't buy the "glamourizing the military to the youth" argument. It's glamourized to everyone. On a further note, at least now they say "fight with the Canadian Forces"  it used to be all about "peacekeeping" and it the ads made the whole thing look like a summer camp. It's somewhat more realistic now.
I would also add that by calling her an "NDPer" or suggesting that "TalibanJack"  has brainwashed her isn't helpful either. I don't think personal attacks are needed to prove her views of the military as misguided. Nor does she necessarily have to support the NDP to have these views.
 
I don't agree with her opinion but I respect her right of "Freedom of expression", however; I wonder how her son feels about his mother going to the press and expressing her views on the Military to whom he's employed and serves?  I believe her motives are purely personal ergo to push her agenda of supporting the peace movement.  She's exercising her rights under our charter, the same rights our Military protects and defends on a daily basis.  I believe it's called irony?
 
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