CDN/US Covid-related political discussion

[brihard]

How to get people on board for the vaxx.

That video was December 2021. The vast majority of us got vaccinated well before then, and well before any mandates. For many of us who actively looked into it, that decision was based on data that the vaccine would decrease disease severity and risk of hospitalization and serious negative long term health outcomes, were we to contract it. That data has held up.

Simply posting this due to the insinuation that the PM’s interview late in 2021 was a factor in many people getting COVID vaccines. Vaccine uptake rates by late 2021 (and before any mandates) don’t support that.

 

[Quirky]

Like COVID it was most deadly in old folks and those with pre existing immune or respiratory issues. So it was a killer of certain demographics and isolated people more than others. We were lucky that it wasn’t a more deadly thing. We worked with it- everyone in the community had it at one point it seemed like. Sick doctors and nurses. Sick cops. Sick ambulance. Sick schools.

So like COVID, it was a bad flu year. Got it.

 

[mariomike]

And I enjoyed having my Mother around for a couple more years,.....

Still being able to hug my Mother, and seeing her healthy and active and spending time with her.

Party politics aside, I'm just very thankful to be heading into a New Year with her.

 

[Booter]

So like COVID, it was a bad flu year. Got it.

You said we have a grand plan. I showed you an example where we couldn’t make the plans we have work as an example of why your understanding is wrong. Even in a simple “bad flu” year the national plans didn’t work properly.

Which it is. I’m not scared of COVID and I’m not scared of ineffective government. I also value other peoples lives- so I don’t mind making simple concessions. Now those concessions went on too long and cost people their livelihood- I disagreed with lots of how things were handled- I wouldn’t be supportive of the same courses of action again especially for the length of times that were involved,

Their response screwed up my kids educations. It messed up my sisters livelihood. It messed up my grandfathers life saving healthcare. And when it wasn’t working there was a tendency to double down.

I made allowances for people trying things. Expecting perfection is weird. It suggests people have zero experience.

 

[Winds]

Bruce’s point about provincial legislation and people blaming fed is valid. Some premiers were more than happy to let the mistaken understanding persist too.

The issue I had with Bruce's point was that it was irrelevant to what he was responding to and included negative characterizations (arrogant, angry) to portray those he disagrees with in a certain light. It's called a straw man argument.

Further, I remember many people insisting that the "truckers" were protesting against provincial measures (lockdowns, masking, etc.) when the core issue of that protest was the mandates for federally regulated industries, including the trucking industry, along with federally imposed travel restrictions... the actual truckers were affected primarily by federal legislation. Moreover, the federal government promoted and facilitated provincial governments in enacting many of their own measures, including vaccine mandates and "passports".

If the federal government had continued to make policies based off good intentions, then I believe many would give them more leniency. It is apparent now that much of their later policies were driven by political polling, not public health concerns though.

Provinces could make vaccination mandatory, says federal health minister | RCI

Health Minister Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos says vaccination remains the only way out of the pandemic

ici.radio-canada.ca

 

[RangerRay]

At the time, comparing COVID death stats between Manitoba and North Dakota, which had fewer restrictions and a lower, less dense population, was eye popping. COVID was killing far more people in Fargo and Grand Forks than in Winnipeg. The stats reversed when North Dakota residents started getting vaccinated well before Manitoba had access to vaccines, or restricted who could get them.

 

[dapaterson]

International border restrictions were reciprocal between Canada and the US. Truckers objecting to US border controls in Ottawa was... an interesting leap.

 

[Winds]

International border restrictions were reciprocal between Canada and the US. Truckers objecting to US border controls in Ottawa was... an interesting leap.

Interesting leap? You just said that the restrictions were reciprocal, as in the two governments worked cooperatively on them. The measures certainly weren't retaliatory in response to U.S. restrictions.

Canada didn't have to prevent unvaccinated U.S. truckers from entering Canada, causing significant logistical challenges at the time. It was also within the federal government's ability to pressure the U.S. to maintain it's exemption for truckers. Yes, the U.S. could ultimately ignore such pressure from its main trading partner but that doesn't mean our government couldn't have tried. The federal government is not just some victim of circumstance, entirely powerless to the whims of the American president. Rather, our government wanted such measures as they aligned with the rest of their policies at the time, so they were encouraged.

How does developing a recipricol policy in cooperation with the U.S. somehow absolve our government? Is this how we view trade agreements?

 

[mariomike]

Was anyone on the front of the swine flu epidemic in 2009?

No. But, perhaps SARS ( Toronto - 2003 ) was a learning experience in Ontario.

Looking back: Toronto’s 2003 SARS outbreak | Globalnews.ca

A new coronavirus has drawn comparison to the 2003 outbreak of SARS. Here, Global News looks at how the illness affected Torontonians nearly 20 years ago.

globalnews.ca

 

[Booter]

No. But, perhaps SARS ( Toronto - 2003 ) was a learning experience in Ontario.

Looking back: Toronto’s 2003 SARS outbreak | Globalnews.ca

A new coronavirus has drawn comparison to the 2003 outbreak of SARS. Here, Global News looks at how the illness affected Torontonians nearly 20 years ago.

globalnews.ca

SARS was a wild one too in a lot of ways- that’s true. It was the “first” our generation really tackled like it

 

[Quirky]

Even in a simple “bad flu” year the national plans didn’t work properly.

Covid showed two things. Our healthcare system is in crisis on a good day and god help us if a real pandemic hits. Second, your average canadian is obese, physically inactive and generally in a poor state of health. With these two constants not changing anytime soon, a real pandemic is going to decimate our population. People are becoming used to government telling them what to do instead of taking accountability for their own well being.

 

[Booter]

Covid showed two things. Our healthcare system is in crisis on a good day and god help us if a real pandemic hits. Second, your average canadian is obese, physically inactive and generally in a poor state of health. With these two constants not changing anytime soon, a real pandemic is going to decimate our population. People are becoming used to government telling them what to do instead of taking accountability for their own well being.

I actually totally agree with you.

 

[brihard]

Covid showed two things. Our healthcare system is in crisis on a good day and god help us if a real pandemic hits. Second, your average canadian is obese, physically inactive and generally in a poor state of health. With these two constants not changing anytime soon, a real pandemic is going to decimate our population. People are becoming used to government telling them what to do instead of taking accountability for their own well being.

In terms of a 'fast' pandemic (i.e., specifically and only excluding HIV/AIDS), COVID has been the deadliest pandemic since the Spanish Flu in 1918-19. COVID has killed between millions and tens of millions depending on the estimate you work with. Pretending it's anything other than a 'real pandemic' is silly. It's been real as hell. At the deaths as total percentage of global population it's about an order of magnitude less, but again there's been nothing between Spanish Flu and COVID that has come close.

Absolutely, there's a real potential we could face a pandemic from something more dangerous still- some of the Avian or Swine flu variants have potential. Or some asshole could let something out of a freezer from back in the ugly days of the cold war; maybe Smallpox or something. COVID has shown what the threshold is in terms of what western healthcare systems can withstand; it's by no means a mild virus, but neither is it the worst thing going. It's also not close to over yet, even as it becomes more endemic. Attempting to minimize the scope of the COVID pandemic is a purely political position not grounded in reality. It's believing what you want to believe rather than what hard data supports. This has been the worst thing in a hundred years, and had it been - or been allowed to become - any worse, we would have seen systemic healthcare system failures rather than the relatively isolated and brief - but still awful - ones that happened. At its peak, Ontario was maybe a couple dozen ICU cases from having literally nowhere else to send the ORNGE helicopters to spread the patient load out from the big centers into smaller ICUs. 'Pick who dies' triage was only barely averted.

There are a TON of lessons to learn from the COVID pandemic in all respects, but honesty about critical case counts versus hospital capacity has to be at the core of any such learning.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

That video was December 2021. The vast majority of us got vaccinated well before then, and well before any mandates. For many of us who actively looked into it, that decision was based on data that the vaccine would decrease disease severity and risk of hospitalization and serious negative long term health outcomes, were we to contract it. That data has held up.

Simply posting this due to the insinuation that the PM’s interview late in 2021 was a factor in many people getting COVID vaccines. Vaccine uptake rates by late 2021 (and before any mandates) don’t support that.

I posted it because of his rhetoric. Not vaccinations. If you didn't fall in line with his vision you were all of what he called Canadian citizens his employers. His rhetoric being reminiscent to that of a certain mustachioed facist dictator. Vilify them with false allegations of being science deniers, racists and misogynists and then wondering allowed 'if we should tolerate these people.' You may be OK with that kind of talk, but coming from a supposed leader, it makes me uncomfortable.

 

[brihard]

I posted it because of his rhetoric. Not vaccinations. If you didn't fall in line with his vision you were all of what he called Canadian citizens his employers. His rhetoric being reminiscent to that of a certain mustachioed facist dictator. Vilify them with false allegations of being science deniers, racists and misogynists and then wondering allowed 'if we should tolerate these people.'

You said "How to get people on board for the vaxx" and then posted the video. shrug.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You said "How to get people on board for the vaxx" and then posted the video. shrug.

I keep saying we need a sarcasm emoji. Try reading it in that context.

 

[mariomike]

At its peak, Ontario was maybe a couple dozen ICU cases from having literally nowhere else to send the ORNGE helicopters to spread the patient load out from the big centers into smaller ICUs.

If they made it to a hospital.

COVID-19 Pandemic Dramatically Increased Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest Cases.

COVID-19 Pandemic Dramatically Increased Out-of-Hospital Cardiac Arrest Cases and Deaths in New York City | Albert Einstein College of Medicine

Researchers at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Montefiore Health System and FDNY discover rise in cardiac arrest cases during COVID-19 pandemic.

www.einsteinmed.edu

 

[Brad Sallows]

god help us if a real pandemic hits

It was a real pandemic; it just didn't have the impressively high fatality rate of something like Ebola.

 

[brihard]

It was a real pandemic; it just didn't have the impressively high fatality rate of something like Ebola.

Which in a way is worse. Something like Ebola burns itself out far too quickly. It's too utterly terrifying, too infectious, and too deadly. Society grinds to a halt and walls are slammed in place in its vicinity. Total human Ebola deaths are probably under 20k. Don't get me wrong, it has potential to be horrendously bad, but a 'pull out all the stops' response to it is such an obvious no-brainer. Smae if we ever something like Smallpox reappear. Viruses in the .1-1% case fatality ratio range are in the sweet spot for tearing through society with a ton of harm, but in a way that limits the ability and willingness of government to act decisively enough to stop it in its tracks.

 

[Remius]

Which in a way is worse. Something like Ebola burns itself out far too quickly. It's too utterly terrifying, too infectious, and too deadly. Society grinds to a halt and walls are slammed in place in its vicinity. Total human Ebola deaths are probably under 20k. Don't get me wrong, it has potential to be horrendously bad, but a 'pull out all the stops' response to it is such an obvious no-brainer. Smae if we ever something like Smallpox reappear. Viruses in the .1-1% case fatality ratio range are in the sweet spot for tearing through society with a ton of harm, but in a way that limits the ability and willingness of government to act decisively enough to stop it in its tracks.

Just go back to 2014 I believe. Plenty of people in the countries affected by Ebola claimed that it was a hoax, just malaria and that governments the WHO et al were all in cahoots about Ebola.