Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Dale Denton]

Whats the difference between the Australian and Canadian bids as well as the Glasgow build? Renderings look different too.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Federal officials felt 'pressured' to direct frigate repair work to Halifax: documents

Irving warned of 'massive layoffs' if government didn't address gap between shipbuilding projects

Federal officials overseeing the country's shipbuilding program warned the Liberal government that they were being leaned on to steer up to $1.2 billion worth of repair and upgrade work on naval frigates toward the Irving-owned Halifax Shipyard, internal documents reveal.

Marie LeMay, deputy minister of Public Services and Procurement Canada, used remarkably blunt language to draw the attention of her minister at the time, Judy Foote, to backroom discussions related to an impending construction gap between different classes of warships

More at link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/irving-shipbuilding-repair-upgrade-1.4718556

 

[Czech_pivo]

Nothing new in that article.  Just re-stating all that is known about this current government and its inability to move anything forward smoothly and capably. 
Will be interesting to see what smoke and mirrors they come up with at the upcoming NATO Summit Meeting where POTUS has already sent an official letter to the PM expressing disgust at our defense spending and openly calling it out that its well, well below that agreed upon 2% level.

 

[Underway]

Whats the difference between the Australian and Canadian bids as well as the Glasgow build? Renderings look different too.

Sensors and weapons are the largest differences really.  The Australian bid uses the CEA family of radars.  This most likely means a weapons loadout of semi active missiles.  The UK uses the Artesian 3D radar and CAAM /Sea Ceptor missiles which are active homing missiles.  The Canadian bid doesn't use either of those radars though the radar type isn't really known.

That's the main reason in why the bids look different, as the mast structure changes with the radar changes along with different comms and EW antenna.  Most of the rest of the ship looks the same.  There are going to be internal differences as well.  All three will have different combat management software, different helo's to be carried, different ASW torps, different engines and power generation, changes to damage control, internal communications, bridge equipment, etc...

 

[MarkOttawa]

Navantia design in running for CSC (also USN FFG(X))--will our ships have missile defence capability?

US approves sale to Spain of 5 Aegis naval weapons systems for $860 million

The U.S. State Department approved the sale to Spain of Aegis naval weapons systems for five new frigates at an estimated cost of $860.4 million, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency said in a release.

The addition of five new Aegis-equipped frigates to Spain’s fleet “will afford more flexibility and capability to counter regional threats and continue to enhance stability in the region,” the Tuesday, June 27 release said.

The Aegis Combat System is an integrated naval weapons system uses radar and computer technology to detect and track targets, and guide weapons to destroy them. The system is composed of the Aegis Weapon System (AWS), the Aegis Anti-Aircraft Warfare (AAW) capability, along with the Phalanx Close In Weapon System (CIWS), and the Mark 41 Vertical Launch System for missiles.

Spain has its own close-in weapon system, the Meroka 12-barrelled Oerlikon 20 mm gun system.`

It can incorporate the Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System which was developed to provide missile defense against short- to intermediate-range ballistic missiles, destroying them after boost phase and prior to reentry using Standard Missiles.

Spain currently operates five Álvaro de Bazán-class frigates (also known as F100-class) with the Aegis system, and the release said that the Spanish navy will “continue to operate it as required to ensure interoperability as a highly valued NATO partner,” adding that it is “vital to the U.S. national interest to assist Spain in developing and maintaining a strong and ready self-defense capability.”

The Spanish navy plans to build five new F110-class frigates, with the first planned to be commissioned in 2023 and the remaining four by 2027 [emphasis added].

The DSCA release said Spain has requested to buy five Aegis Weapons Systems, including among many components five shipsets of AWS Computing Infrastructure, Operational Readiness Test Systems, Mk 99 Mod 14 Fire Control Systems and Mk 41 Baseline VII Vertical Launching Systems.

Weaponry in the proposed sale includes 20 Standard Missile 2 Block IIIB missiles and two Mk 54 Mod 0 lightweight torpedoes...
https://thedefensepost.com/2018/06/27/us-spain-aegis-weapons-systems-approved/

Navantia design also in running, along with BAE Type 26 and Fincantieri FREMM, for new RAN frigates:
https://www.naval-technology.com/features/sea-5000-building-australias-future-frigates/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Dale Denton]

Sensors and weapons are the largest differences really.  The Australian bid uses the CEA family of radars.  This most likely means a weapons loadout of semi active missiles.  The UK uses the Artesian 3D radar and CAAM /Sea Ceptor missiles which are active homing missiles.  The Canadian bid doesn't use either of those radars though the radar type isn't really known.

That's the main reason in why the bids look different, as the mast structure changes with the radar changes along with different comms and EW antenna.  Most of the rest of the ship looks the same.  There are going to be internal differences as well.  All three will have different combat management software, different helo's to be carried, different ASW torps, different engines and power generation, changes to damage control, internal communications, bridge equipment, etc...

Thank you for the info.

Why isn't there a requirement for any Destroyer variants and for just 1 class? Why are we asking for 15 (heavy?) Frigates instead of a combo of Destroyers and Frigates? Wouldn't there be a "capability gap"? Is an aegis-equipped frigate really just a destroyer anyways?

Sorry for all the questions, new to naval stuff.

 

[Swampbuggy]

Thank you for the info.

Why isn't there a requirement for any Destroyer variants and for just 1 class? Why are we asking for 15 (heavy?) Frigates instead of a combo of Destroyers and Frigates? Wouldn't there be a "capability gap"? Is an aegis-equipped frigate really just a destroyer anyways?

Sorry for all the questions, new to naval stuff.

I believe that I’ve heard that there’s a possibility that each ship will have the same sensor suite, VLS arrangement, weapons etc. Therefore, depending on mission parameters, any ship could take the destroyer role (re: AAW for instance) or C/C platform while the others could be loaded out according to whatever supporting role they are directed to (ASW, supporting land forces etc). If that’s true, then the flexibility of the class will be a huge asset, but also likely very expensive given that each ship would be equipped with the same pricey tech. I believe Underway has spoken to this possiblity much earlier on in this thread.

 

[Dale Denton]

BAE triumphs in £20bn Australia frigate contract

https://www.ft.com/content/845e88e0-7ac7-11e8-8e67-1e1a0846c475
https://www.wsj.com/articles/australias-26-billion-warship-deal-goes-to-britains-bae-1530190803


Emphasis mine:

BAE Systems has beaten Italian and Spanish rivals to win a multibillion-dollar contract to build Australia’s new fleet of warships in a victory that should strengthen defence ties between London and Canberra just as Britain exits the EU.

The UK defence giant will supply nine of its new Type 26 submarine hunters to the Royal Australian Navy in the landmark programme, in what is the first overseas order for the new generation of British-designed frigates.

The total value of the programme is estimated at A$35bn (£20bn) over its 30-year life, although analysts estimated the contract for the build phase will be valued at between A$15bn and A$20bn.

Canberra chose BAE over rival designs from Spain’s Navantia and Italy’s Fincantieri in a competitive tender, which is part of a A$200bn spending programme by Australia to upgrade its military hardware.

The UK has embarked on a diplomatic charm offensive over the past 12 months in Australia, including visits by Boris Johnson, foreign secretary, and Michael Fallon, former defence secretary. It has pledged to upgrade defence co-operation with Canberra and play a more prominent role in the Asia Pacific, where China has begun to militarise islands in the contested waters of the South China Sea.

BAE’s Type 26 global combat ship is scheduled to start replacing the Royal Navy’s existing Type 23 frigates in the late 2020s and is expected to remain in service until the middle of the century. The UK ministry of defence ordered eight frigates and started building the first of class last year.

Analysts said the Australian Navy’s decision to choose the Type 26 should help BAE compete for other overseas orders, including an ongoing tender by the Royal Canadian Navy for 15 frigates worth an estimated $50bn.

New Tribal Class (if we pick T26 too)? Although Hunter-Class sounds great too.

 

[Czech_pivo]

I'm going out on a limb and predicting that we too pick the Type 26.

 

[Cloud Cover]

If the Aussies are going with 9 for 35 billion, we will get 6 for same price or more.

 

[Czech_pivo]

The belief is that we'll get 15 for 60.  Let's hope that we do get 15 as anything less will make us even less capable and more reliant on the US.

 

[Swampbuggy]

The belief is that we'll get 15 for 60.  Let's hope that we do get 15 as anything less will make us even less capable and more reliant on the US.

I’m not so sure. I’d almost rather see 13-14 CSC all equally equipped, and then with the $2-4B saved buy 1-2 more AOPS and then a fleet of 7-9 simple, fast and adequately armed stay at home coastal defence craft to replace the MCDV’s. Something like the USCG Sentinal class or maybe an ARMIDALE. Send the CSC’s out on international deployments, use the AOPS on northern duties, OP CARIBBE, West Africa deployment etc and as the “lily pads” off our Southern coasts, and keep the small, fast ships for 2 week coastal patrols. That might be a better fleet mix overall.

 

[Thumper81]

So Australia went Type 26.  Let's hope we follow suit.  The BAe Type 26 is paired with Lockheed Martin so they should have a leg up due to CMS 330.  However dumb things have happened in procurement before.  The RCN unfortunately probably has no real say in the final design selection.  It'll be decided by Public Works.   

 

[serger989]

The belief is that we'll get 15 for 60.  Let's hope that we do get 15 as anything less will make us even less capable and more reliant on the US.

15 is the official number but, I did read someone in the government mentioning the possibility of only 11. I truly do not remember this and am now using google-foo if my memory is deceiving me.

Edit: I believe it was Jason Kennedy, though it was said in 2015, so it's pretty old news

 

[Swampbuggy]

15 is the official number but, I did read someone in the government mentioning the possibility of only 11. I truly do not remember this and am now using google-foo if my memory is deceiving me.

Edit: I believe it was Jason Kennedy, though it was said in 2015, so it's pretty old news

I’m pretty sure you’re correct about it being Jason Kenney and the number 11. I also seem to remember that someone speaking in the RCN’s behalf (it may have even been Mark Norman) thought there was a chance it could go even lower and that they had warned the government that anything less than 9 would be unacceptable.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Jason Kenney in 2015:

The Incredible Shrinking RCN Canadian Surface Combatant Fleet, or…

"A re-elected Conservative government could end up approving the construction of as few as 11 warships to replace the navy’s frigates, despite committing to 15 combat vessels under their marquee defence strategy.

Conservative candidate Jason Kenney, the defence minister, offered that update on Friday [Oct. 2]..."
https://cgai3ds.wordpress.com/2015/10/05/mark-collins-the-incredible-shrinking-rcn-canadian-surface-combatant-fleet-or/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Underway]

Jason Kenney was speaking before three things happened.

1.  His gov't got booted and thus he has no say now.
2. The new defence policy was released.
3.  The budget for the ships was increased to approx $60 billion.

 

[Swampbuggy]

I’m curious about the potential 18 month gap between AOPS and CSC. Is it more or less a done deal that there will be a significant gap, due to the delays in picking a design, or is there still a possibility of a relatively smooth transition between building one class and the other.  I guess what I’m asking is if the warning of the delay is more to put a charge in someone’s tail to get them moving faster or is it a given at this point? Or, thirdly, is it a machination to get more work out of the Government? Maybe all three?

 

[suffolkowner]

I’m curious about the potential 18 month gap between AOPS and CSC. Is it more or less a done deal that there will be a significant gap, due to the delays in picking a design, or is there still a possibility of a relatively smooth transition between building one class and the other.  I guess what I’m asking is if the warning of the delay is more to put a charge in someone’s tail to get them moving faster or is it a given at this point? Or, thirdly, is it a machination to get more work out of the Government? Maybe all three?

A bunch more AOPS for the CCG whether they want them or not

 

[Cloud Cover]

I’m pretty sure you’re correct about it being Jason Kenney and the number 11. I also seem to remember that someone speaking in the RCN’s behalf (it may have even been Mark Norman) thought there was a chance it could go even lower and that they had warned the government that anything less than 9 would be unacceptable.

If the number is 9, or less than 12, Leadmark will require a revision or a new vision.
I'm concerned that if the possibility of a change in government in 2019 or the financial effects of the erupting trade wars will throw this project into the boneyard.  Canadian peso's may not buy much...