Canadian Forces in Normandy

[Art Johnson]

First of all we were talking about a friend of mine who was in the Canadian Army and you said that the mother of the German officer spoke to George and I asked you to give me your sourse for that statement and you have come back with something that has nothing to do with the Canadian Army. In another action subsequent to the butt stroke incident CSM George Mitchel was awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal
I think we have exchange views on this subject before on a different board. You were eventually banned from the board as you had nothing of substance to offer you are just **** disturbing. When asked by MAD if you had ever served you claimed to be confined to a wheelchair. Again I ask you to give me sourse for your statement that the German oddicer‘s mother spoke to CSM George Mitchell. It didn‘t happen and you know it.

 

[Art Johnson]

You are **** right I‘m threating, you are attempting to sully the reputation of a friend and collegue of mine and a Canadian Hero to boot TELL ME THE SOURSE OF YOUR REMARK NEVER MIND ALL THE BS THAT YOU ARE THROWING UP.

 

[D-n-A]

I have a book on the 1st SS Panzer Corp(panzer units of 1st LSSAH an 12th SS HJ combined into a corps)

it talks about the executions a bit


also, I dont know if this has been brought up or not, but not all SS Soldats were Nazi‘s. A lot of them didnt join up(some were conscripted) because they were devoted Nazi‘s, they just wanted to be in a "modern" military force, that was seen to the the elite/best of Germany.

A lot of "sub-humans" in Aryan standards were in the W-SS, like the Slavs.


also, people cant just point the finger to the germans on war crimes, all sides commited war crimes, just the victor‘s never seem to get punished(atleast back in those days)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Art, don‘t let him get to you. Sherwood is so full of **** his eyes are brown. Aside from his continual stream of dumb questions about our Army, his posts in this thread have certainly revealed he isn‘t much of a scholar, either. If he is using the History Channel as a source, can‘t spell the subject of his next paper, or continues to make claims for which he has no actual source, there really isn‘t much point continuing any civilized discussion with him.

Considering that you yourself have seen combat, as a Canadian, not to mention your work as an historian with the 48th, I would be far more inclined to listen you you on the subject of Canadian soldiers in action than to some alleged American soldier who can‘t keep his stories straight and who feels the need to ask elementary questions over and over again.

As for d-n-a‘s faulty statement that the victors never get punished, I think Hermann Goering would be proud, he spouted the same line at Nuremberg before they scheduleda date for him with the hangman. How many Germans were punished for "war crimes"? Very few, in total. The Malmedy Massacre and the Sagan murders ("The Great Escape") were heavily prosecuted - I think 40 Germans were executed for role at Malmedy where 70+ soldiers were gunned down in cold blood. The Sagan murders involved 50 British and allied pilots who were executed by the Gestapo; a brilliant effort netted the majority of perpetrators, perhaps even all of them that weren‘t either killed at Nuremberg (ie Kaltenbrunner), killed in action before the end of the war, or taken by the Russians.

But beyond that, was every German that ever killed a prisoner or abused a Jew sent to jail? No.

Putting aside the Russians, and Katyn, how many mass murders were perpetrated by Canadian units?

If anyone has any evidence that doesn‘t come from the History Channel of any great unprosecuted Canadian war crimes, feel free to post about it now.

 

[D-n-A]

Michael Doroush, I was talking about the Allied Forces as a whole, not just the Canadians, I havent heard about any "great" canadian war crimes..


but, for Allied War Crimes, as far as I know havent been had the people who commited them punished are..


Inhumane Treatment of POW‘s, mostly for the SS Soldiers, a lot were beat up(mostly after people heard of the execution of canadian soldiers commited by members of the 12th SS). An being shot on site shooting POW‘s, an wounded soldiers in a hospital, these how ever were commited mostly(from what I‘ve read) by the Russians, who tended to shoot all SS prisoners on site.


I‘ve also heard of US MP‘s who executed a lot of W-SS soldiers who were on there way to the front lines, but were captured close to a Concentration or Death Camp, because they mistook them for the W-SS Camp Guards, but the camp guards fled before the Allied forces came near the camp. This incident happened in ‘45.


An when the Russians took Berlin, mass looting, an rape took place, commited by the Russians, I know this would be near impossible to prosecute every single soldier.


Thats all I could think up right now.


Michael, do you know if the Soldiers of 1st LSSAH that commited the massacre of 65-80 British Soldiers of the 48th Division? In France, May 1940 have been caught/punished?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Michael Doroush, I was talking about the Allied Forces as a whole, not just the Canadians, I havent heard about any "great" canadian war crimes..

Neither have I, but of course, I don‘t have access to the secret US Army files on the subject. I suppose I need to watch the History Channel more often.

but, for Allied War Crimes, as far as I know havent been had the people who commited them punished are..

I‘ll need that translated, I‘m afraid I only speak English.

Inhumane Treatment of POW‘s, mostly for the SS Soldiers, a lot were beat up(mostly after people heard of the execution of canadian soldiers commited by members of the 12th SS).

So what? Lots of Limeys got beat up in bars in England by drunk Canadians. I wasn‘t aware that beating someone up was a ‘war crime‘. Did we actually prosecute Germans for ‘beating up" PWs? If not, then this is irrelevant.

An being shot on site shooting POW‘s, an wounded soldiers in a hospital, these how ever were commited mostly(from what I‘ve read) by the Russians, who tended to shoot all SS prisoners on site.

I don‘t doubt that conditions on the Russian Front were far worse; it was an openly declared war of genocide. I think it strays pretty far off topic, though. The Russians were one of the world‘s leading powers in 1945. There was no way to prosecute THEM for war crimes (ie Katyn) simply because the other world powers wanted to keep the peace, and were in no position to dictate terms to the Russians, their erstwhile allies.

Should, in a perfect world, the Russians have tried their own people for war crimes? Yep.

I‘ve also heard of US MP‘s who executed a lot of W-SS soldiers who were on there way to the front lines, but were captured close to a Concentration or Death Camp, because they mistook them for the W-SS Camp Guards, but the camp guards fled before the Allied forces came near the camp.

I‘ll need a source for this before I believe it.

An when the Russians took Berlin, mass looting, an rape took place, commited by the Russians, I know this would be near impossible to prosecute every single soldier.

This, on the other hand, is of course well known. And it should be noted that German soldiers found guilty of rape while serving in Russia were severely punished. Bartov talks about rates of punishment in HITLER‘S ARMY. I interviewed a veteran from Panzer Lehr who also told me that they were punished for rape - but all the Russian girls were unattractive anyway!

I think the point here, though, is that US, Canadian or British "war crimes" were extremely rare, and while there may be some validity to the claim that justice was only served by the victors to the vanquished, it probably only really applies to the Russians. Discipline in US and Canadian units was quite tight. Two men, for example, in the South Alberta Regiment were severely punished for raping a Dutch woman, even though the evidence was circumstantial at best. See the book SOUTH ALBERTAS: A CANADIAN REGIMENT AT WAR by Donald Graves for full details of this, as well as additional info in PEEWEES ON PARADE, a personal memoir of a soldier in the South Alberta Regiment who knew one of the accused "rapists".

 

[D-n-A]

"I‘ll need a source for this before I believe it."

I found this article of W-SS Guards at Dachau being executed by US Soldiers

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauLiberation/SoldiersKilled.html


I‘ll keep looking for some information the on incident that I was referring to earliar

on a side note, while doing my search, I came across this, I‘m not sure how authentic it is, but It‘s an interesting read on the British executing varouis SS members after the war that were suspected of killing SOE an SAS members during the war.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stickems/JosefGalinsky.htm

 

[muskrat89]

Post withdrawn

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I‘m going to state something, and it will be my last statement on this particular topic.

Bet it won‘t be.

Like most Canadian families, I had several close members fight in WWI, WWII, and Korea. As relatives, and Canadians, I hold them in very high esteem - "untouchable, and pure" in many regards. That being said, one of my family members rarely talked to me about his experiences. He was on tribal class destroyers, and corvettes, during the War. He related - once - and never again, an experience where Canadian seamen supposedly turned small arms and MGs on some German survivors in the water. I doubt very much there are any official accounts anywhere. The issue wasn‘t pressed, and I think the only reason it was spoken at all was to lighten a burden. Crappy stuff happens in wars. Some, I take it, crappier than other stuff. Some is acceptable, and some is not. I have talked to enough veterans in my life to know that Canadians live in no glass houses, on this issue.

But the key point you‘re missing here is - we were no worse and no better than the majority of our enemies on this score. See my point below on your use of the word "blatant".

If I misspelled a word, Dorosh, or there‘s a typo that invalidates everything, great. Your attitude on this board gets snarkier and more pompous every day, and it started long before Sherwood arrived. If there‘s no accounts in the archives, or vessel histories, and I‘m lying, thats great too.

Oh please. If you‘re not able to see Sherwood for he is, then that‘s your problem.

If someone questions my admiration and respect for Canadian veterans, they are in for a ride - I have demonstrated it. Mr. Johnson - am not disputing your account, nor your friend‘s. I am just saying that knowledge of circumstances, or perceived knowledge of circumstances.. doesn‘t necessarily mean someone is passing judgement. The blatant violations aside, most of us are in no position to judge...

Exactly, which is why this conversation to date has been about the blatant violations. I contend there won‘t be any record of the Canadian ones, probably because "blatant" violations - depending on your definition - weren‘t on the magnitude of those of our German enemies, or our Soviet allies. Take a look at the record of Prinz Eugen in the Balkans, or even the units that fought in the west at Oradour in 1944, or at Dunkirk in 1940, and tell me that anything western allied troops did compared to that?

We are not talking about the "**** happens" type stuff and I‘d dismiss your naval incident as irrelevant, as it may indeed have been quite common, and most certainly undocumented.

 

[Danjanou]

Right up to now I‘ve kept silent on this thread. Mainly because I‘ve been out of the country and away from internet access until now. I‘m back and caught up on my reading now and not pleased.

When I agreed to be moderator of this branch I stated I was pretty easy going and for the most part I am. I find the initial debate in this thread valid and interesting. This is the sort of thing that should be discussed here, rationally
(as opposed to more tales of paint ball and video game exploits by soldier wannabees).

That said and done the little snide comments and personal cracks that have started creeping in will cease. This is not directed at any one individual either. Might I suggest that we all start acting like what we‘re supposed to be, soldiers and professionals and not a bunch of preschoolers at recess.

I would prefer not to shut this thread down as said it is both interesting and I feel a valid and important topic for informed debate. I will not however allow it to deterirate into the same juvenile verbal diarrea that has recently befallen another thread elsewhere on the board.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Well, why don‘t we start from the top again.

The original questions were these:

I am working on a paper involving attrocities and the breaking of the geneva conventions by all belligerents in WWII....Anyway, I was wondering what everyone thought of the take no prisoners orders by Canadian units after they learned of the shootings? Does and did Canada have some type of rules of land warfare?

We‘ve established that no such orders were given officially, and no one has presented anything but anecdotal evidence re: unofficial orders. The Horror and The Valour talked about this in the Normandy episode; perhaps the companion book or website has some actual references to quote.

There is some thought that says the CDN troops committed brutal acts first and that is why the Germans reacted...I am a little sceptical of that claim, although I do think that there were many instances of war crimes on all sides that were never reported.

We‘ve pretty much agreed that the last part of this statement is true. As for the first, we have yet to see documentary evidence presented.

So there it stands.