CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[Cdn Blackshirt]

112 to be exact, 12 of which converted to ARV's, another 18 into AEV's, leaving 82 actual tanks, my sources might be wrong and I hope they are but an estimated 42 are actually in circulation for training, leaving 40 tanks, our 20 A6MCAN's and our A4MCAN's free for operations.

I think I looked this up last year:
20 A6MCAN
20 A4MCAN (same except with shorter main gun)
40 A4 - Not updated recently

Could have changed.....

Was kind of hoping they were going to upgrade the 40 A4's to at least the A4MCAN standard, but haven't seen anything indicating any progress in that respect.

 

[suffolkowner]

I think I looked this up last year:
20 A6MCAN
20 A4MCAN (same except with shorter main gun)
40 A4 - Not updated recently

Could have changed.....

Was kind of hoping they were going to upgrade the 40 A4's to at least the A4MCAN standard, but haven't seen anything indicating any progress in that respect.

I'm curious is there a benefit to both the 2A4's and 2A6's? To having the two different size guns?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

The tank project worked wonders within their constraints. The Leo2A6M is arguably the best tank in the world, but simply getting 80 of those was not on the table. The project did very well to get at least 20 A4s upgraded with the protection package. That work requires some fairly specialized equipment not readily available.

 

[MilEME09]

The longer barrel L55 gun of the A6 is suited for tank on tank engagements more then the L44 is because it can achieve higher muzzle velocity. The FCS and a few other minor things are also different between the A4 and the A6. If we want to have one common fleet A6 would be the standard for anti armour warfare,    otherwise an A4 or a5 is fine. If you wanna get super fancy you can upgrade to A7 like the Germans are slowly doing. Remember those tanks they loaned us? They were the first to be upgraded to the new A7 configuration.

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[suffolkowner]

Thanks, obviously no shortage of things to spend the new increased budget on :rofl:

 

[MilEME09]

Should also be noted the Germans are taking an interest in. Reviving the leo 2 140 program. Due to recent threats from russian armour advancements the idea is a 140mm 55 caliber smoothbore gun has been tested in a A5 model.

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[TangoTwoBravo]

We are well off-topic now, but the Leopard 2A6Ms that we leased for use in Afghanistan are now the Leo2A6Ms that we have in Canada. We gave Germany the Leo2A6s that we bought from the Netherlands and those became the ones that were upgraded for the German army. Tank development has been fairly static since the end of the Cold War, but we'll see what develops now.

The Leo2A6M has the fully independent hunter-killer sight in addition to the L55 barrel. Considering that we were getting out the tank business in 2003 we are looking pretty good right now!

As for the Enhanced Forward Presence, this is a great opportunity to practice interoperability.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Not sure if any spare Leo 2’s are left to be leased, I have no doubt a deal could be made at reasonable costs to have upgraded M1’s fielded there for Canadians and others to use as there is about 2,000 in storage, however that brings up significant training challenges.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Should also be noted the Germans are taking an interest in. Reviving the leo 2 140 program. Due to recent threats from russian armour advancements the idea is a 140mm 55 caliber smoothbore gun has been tested in a A5 model.

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I think I read that there was also an upgrade on the L55 Gun which allowed ammunition with higher pressures which could be an option....

 

[suffolkowner]

To continue the Leopard 2 improvement discussions

http://below-the-turret-ring.blogspot.ca/2016/07/future-leopard-2-improvments.html

 

[MilEME09]

I think I read that there was also an upgrade on the L55 Gun which allowed ammunition with higher pressures which could be an option....

Also an upgrade to enable the firing of the LAHAT ATGM which would effectively double the engagement range of the leo. All great options canada should consider if we move armour to latvia, or buy some of those german tanks still in storage. Also dont forget the conventional forces in europe treaty applies here.

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[George Wallace]

Also an upgrade to enable the firing of the LAHAT ATGM which would effectively double the engagement range of the leo. All great options canada should consider if we move armour to latvia, or buy some of those german tanks still in storage. Also dont forget the conventional forces in europe treaty applies here.

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A consideration here is the ammo outload that the tank would have.  Would that drastically reduce the number of rounds that the tank would carry? 

 

[MilEME09]

A consideration here is the ammo outload that the tank would have.  Would that drastically reduce the number of rounds that the tank would carry?

My understanding is it would take up relatively the same amount of space. So its just what loadout you want.

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[McG]

It is a battalion, not a brigade that NATO will put in Latvia.  Canada is sending a battalion HQ and an infantry company (not a battle group or even a combat team).  It is there to deter, not to defeat, a Russian invasion. 

My take on it?  If we put our limited fleet of Leopard 2 into Latvia and a war actually happens, we can expect to quickly lose all the tanks and crews to no strategic gain.  If a war happens, we will want our tanks for the push from Western Europe to take back what has been overrun. 

I'm curious is there a benefit to both the 2A4's and 2A6's? To having the two different size guns?

No. Different tanks mean lower capital costs up front, but higher lifecycle costs and more ass pain through the life of the fleet.  We have different tanks because that is how we could afford to purchase the determined quantity requirement with the budget profile.  With a <1% defence budget you get 80 tanks in three tiers of capability (one of which is below operational). With a 2% budget, you could get those 80 tanks all at the top tier of capability so that they are all deployable to war, they do not require conversion training for any crew or maintainer, and they all benefit from completely common parts.

 

[MarkOttawa]

MCG:

...If a war happens, we will want our tanks for the push from Western Europe to take back what has been overrun...

Then the war will a lot longer indeed that one suspects anyone thinks for Canadian tanks to arrive--and not nuclear.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[MarkOttawa]

Maybe the UN will request Canadian tanks for Mali :rofl:--on the other hand now that MINUSMA has Bundeswehr attack helos...
http://www.janes.com/article/67329/germany-airlifts-nh90s-and-tigers-to-mali

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Mali is perfect for the LAV's and helicopters. Look at how the French operate.

 

[MJP]

Maybe a split for all the LEO 2 and Mali talk is in order?

 

[George Wallace]

I think I read that there was also an upgrade on the L55 Gun which allowed ammunition with higher pressures which could be an option....

Just saw this:

 

[MarkOttawa]

Polish BGEN to command NATO Enhanced Forward Presence forces in Baltics and Poland--a tweet:
https://twitter.com/cezarysta/status/850765800382320640

Cez Arysta‏ @cezarysta

.@NATO Multinational Division North-East #MNDNE
☑task: coordinate #eFP #battlegroups
☑commander: BG Krzysztof #Motacki
☑location: #Elbląg

Mark
Ottawa