CAF Specialist Pay [Spec Pay]- All Trades [MERGED]

[Armymedic]

Poetboy,
I understand your gripe on this subject and if I were in your shoes I would be pissed as well.

Unfortunately for you, I understand the reasoning for the policy as detrimental financially as it is for you...

Understand does not = agree though

As of yet Med tech do not recieve spec pay but when they do, I would agree with this policy. As a Med Tech you may get promoted Cpl, and recieved the training for the civilian equivelent as part of the QL 3. But its not until they are comlete thier QL 5 that Med Techs can become fully funtional in all roles a Cpl/Mcpl can fill.

I don't quite know how POET trades relate in this fashion, but as I said, I understand the policy.

 

[poetboy]

Basically, the spec pay was introduced as an incentive to retain and recruit members. It was a way to get people to resign their contracts ESPECIALLY at the end of the crucial three year intital engagement. This is when most techs are finished (ing) their QL3 stage and reaching their CPL status. At this point, civilian recruiters recognized the high skill level of the CF members and the low pay levels of the standard scale. Many techs were offered jobs in the civilian sector that were too good to pass up; the CF had no way to compensate it members to get them to stay. As a result, the "spec pay" was brought about to enhance the pay of trades that were considered highly desirable positions to the public sector and that incentives would be paid to keep and recruit people in these positions. Spec pay was paid to everyone in the trades allocated as soon as you reached Cpl status as an incentive to stay in the program, regardless of what QL level you had reached. This was of course due to the horrendous backlog of people in the training system. We have all heard of the horror stories of people in Borden for two years waiting for POET and then waiting another year for their 3's. People were VR'ing (quitting) while waiting for courses. Morale was dead low and people were OT'ing to other trades just to get out of Borden and just to DO SOMETHING. In my case I was only waiting a year for POET, which I consider average amongst the people here. The point being: when my three year contract comes up, I will be QL3 qualified, a Cpl, an OACETT student member, and in the eyes of most public sector employers, extremely well qualified to do electronics repairs. Now the question is, do I resign a contract with the military that will offer me the same wages as the cooks for the next 3 years, or do I explore my options as a civilian? The whole point of the spec pay was to remove that doubt of resigning from our minds.
On another note, some trades that are similar to FCS but do not include a QL5 component WILL receive spec pay upon reaching their QL3's as it is their standards level. Again, this is another incentive for people in a flagged trade to choose to either OT to a non QL5 course or for people choosing a career to avoid FCS altogether.

 

[Bert]

Poetboy >
"Now the question is, do I resign a contract with the military that will offer me the same
wages as the cooks for the next 3 years, or do I explore my options as a civilian? The whole
point of the spec pay was to remove that doubt of resigning from our minds."

Its safe to say that everyone is in charge of their future and considering all options is a
responsible method.   The trick is to figure out the best path.

I've had alot of experience in the civilian world and enough to say that getting and keeping
a good paying technical job in the private sector is difficult.   The last few years have been
turbulent especially in hi-tech and hi-tech manufacturing.   Most techical sectors are still
recovering, others are recessed, and the looming question of how strong the economy is
going to be in the next few years.

Many electronics technicians and technologists seriously considered and followed-up on a
military career for the job security, the training, and the possibility of doing more than a
8-4 kind of job.   The draw-backs may be the member doesn't always perform technical
work, the job is more system level than component level, and there is competition
for courses.

The pay/benefits in the private sector are not always that great especially during initial
employment.   It takes several years and hard work and acquired experience to get
anything close to $50,000 generally speaking.   In the military, Private pay is not
spectacular yet is comparable to civilian junior technicians and even better in many cases.
The difference is in the benefits, deployment pay, and whether you like the varied
characteristic of military life.

I'd say if you got a definite handle on a civy job with good pay, security, and the chance to
progress in position and increasing pay, then its worth considering.   If you don't, then
you may find that the grass is not necessarily greener in the civy world.

In my opinion, the military technical training system is good for job specific training at the
system level and product training.   Yet, the electronic fundamental theory and experience
is quickly brushed over.   Civy technicians who went thru college have better fundamentals
in a two or three year program than a CF member with just Poet and QL3s.   Its a balance
of things too.

My advice would be to stay in the CF, take the courses you think lie in a good career path,
and bank the money.   At the same time, watch the markets, the jobs (private and public),
project where you want to be and when the timing is right, make you're move.   If you hop
out of the miltiary too quickly, you might regret it.

 

[poetboy]

To Bert:

Thank you for your considerable thoughts on the situation. I appreciate your insight and opinion. I will definitely weigh my options carefully when the time comes to resign my contract. In the meantime, I am still discouraged by the change of heart in the CF to take away something that had been in place for so long, even if it was merely a goodwill gesture to beleaguered technicians awaiting completion of training.

 

[Armymedic]

Basically, the spec pay was introduced as an incentive to retain and recruit members. It was a way to get people to resign their contracts ESPECIALLY at the end of the crucial three year intital engagement. This is when most techs are finished (ing) their QL3 stage and reaching their CPL status. At this point, civilian recruiters recognized the high skill level of the CF members and the low pay levels of the standard scale. Many techs were offered jobs in the civilian sector that were too good to pass up; the CF had no way to compensate it members to get them to stay. As a result, the "spec pay" was brought about to enhance the pay of trades that were considered highly desirable positions to the public sector and that incentives would be paid to keep and recruit people in these positions. Spec pay was paid to everyone in the trades allocated as soon as you reached Cpl status as an incentive to stay in the program, regardless of what QL level you had reached. This was of course due to the horrendous backlog of people in the training system. We have all heard of the horror stories of people in Borden for two years waiting for POET and then waiting another year for their 3's.

Uhm, thaks but wrong....Spec pay has been in the CF for quite a long time (over 20 yrs). While you are indeed correct that it was in response to higher paying civilian jobs poaching CF members, it did not have anything to do amount of time waiting for courses.  It was also given because of higher levels of learning (ie long and hard courses, hence why infantry doesn't get it). In fact up until the last 5-10 yrs, many trades required QL 5 to be promoted to Cpl, and most trades were loaded 2 yrs after completion of QL 3. In fact failure of QL 5 course can prevent you from being promoted.

And its only been in the last 3-5 yrs that the poaching of training personnel to beef up operations has caused this shortages of staff and therefor the back log of PATs.

I feel your understanding of the background issues maybe flawed due to your personal intrest in this decision.

Questions: Did you join under the NCM-SEP? Did you get promoted to Cpl on completion of your MOC training?

Further, are you aware that there are changes in the career progression for trades...First BE may be 5-7 yrs before initial contract is reviewed....

Too bad you wasted bandwith explaining to me what Specialist Pay is.

 

[poetboy]

Questions: Did you join under the NCM-SEP? Did you get promoted to Cpl on completion of your MOC training?

Further, are you aware that there are changes in the career progression for trades...First BE may be 5-7 yrs before initial contract is reviewed....

1) Yes, I joined as an NCM, standard engagement, if that is what you meant
2) No, I have not completed MOC training nor have I been promoted to Cpl
3) Please explain the changes to the BE you mention. Are you saying that they are going to change the contracts for new recruits or they are going to change the existing contracts for NCM's.

I appreciate your feedback and criticisms. I accept that I am close to this issue and not fully aware of all the background issues that may be behind it. I am however, aware of how it affects the morale of the 900 or so students presently studying at CFSCSE. I defer to your greater experience and knowledge of the Spec Pay history. I apologize for my inaccuracies.

 

[ModlrMike]

As of 30th July, 2004, if you are not a Cpl in a "Spec" trade already making spec pay, you will no longer be eligible for spec pay until you are fully QL5 qualified effective 30, August 2004.
...snip...
What do you guys think?

I think that if you're not qualified in your trade, then you're not entitled to the same pay as those that are qualified. I also think that this is a Treasury Board driven issue and not the CFs doing.

 

[Spr.Earl]

The only pers.who deserve Spec. Pay are those in high risk trades which they have volunteered for.
Like S.A.R.Tech.'s,etc.

 

[poetboy]

High risk trades have their own pay incentives and allowances such as Divers Clearance, Field Pay, Flight Engineers Pay, Pilots Pay, Etc. Specialist Pay recognizes higher levels of education and training and is paid to SAR techs as well due to their advanced training and levels of readiness. They are Spec 2, the highest category. I have no problem with people in high risk trades being compensated for their work and agree wholeheartedly with you there. But let's let's keep this thread on topic.

 

[George Wallace]

High risk trades have their own pay incentives and allowances such as Divers Clearance, Field Pay, Flight Engineers Pay, Pilots Pay, Etc. .

Excuse me????

What are you talking about?  These are not Spec Pay. 

Pilots, Doctors and Lawyers are separate Pay Scales.

Field Pay, Sea Pay, Jump Allowances, etc. are all allowances that all members of the CF, no matter what Pay Scale they may have, including Spec Pay, are entitled to if they are filling a position in such a role.



GW

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Hate to burst your bubble poetboy but some operator trades in the navy now get Spec1.

 

[Armymedic]

Does this policy span all spec pay earning MOS's?

I'll have to see on on the pay and benifits site...

If it does, then sounds like yours might just be an unfotunate victim...

 

[Armymedic]

Found it, and it sucks to be you and a whole bunch of other people....


This is a DIN link so I'll copy the CANFORGEN here for you....
http://vcds.mil.ca/vcds-exec/pubs/canforgen/2004/111-04_e.asp

CANFORGEN 111/04 ADM(HR-MIL) 059 061843Z AUG 04
RESTRUCTURE OF OCCUPATIONS RECEIVING SPECIALIST PAY
UNCLASSIFIED


REF: A. AIG 1764/1760 DPPD 022 181129Z JUL 04
B. 5555-111-1(MOSART 2-2) DATED 16 JUL 04



THIS MESSAGE IS FURTHER TO THE ADVANCE NOTICE AT REF A, AND PROVIDES DETAILED INFORMATION ON THE APPROVED RESTRUCTURE OF THE SPECIALIST ONE OR SPECIALIST TWO PAY TRADE GROUPS EFFECTIVE 1 AUG 04. AFFECTED OCC INCLUDING THOSE PREVIOUSLY RESTRUCTURED BY INDIVIDUAL OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE IMPLEMENTATION PLAN (OSIP) ARE: AEROSPACE CONTROL OPERATOR (AC OP), AIRCRAFT STRUCTURES TECH (ACS TECH), AIRBORNE ELECTRONIC SENSOR OPERATOR (AES OP), AEROSPACE TELECOMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS TECHNICIAN (ATIS TECH), AVIATION SYSTEMS TECHNICIAN (AVN TECH), AVIONIC SYSTEMS TECHNICIAN (AVS TECH), BIOMEDICAL ELECTRONICS TECHNOLOGIST (BE TECH), CLEARANCE DIVER (CL DVR), COMMUNICATOR RESEARCH (COMM RSCH), ELECTRICAL TECHNICIAN (E TECH), FIRE CONTROL SYSTEMS TECHNICIAN (FCS TECH), FLIGHT ENGINEER (FLT ENGR), GEOMATICS TECHNICIAN (GEO TECH), HULL TECHNICIAN (H TECH), LAND COMMUNICATIONS AND INFORMATION SYSTEMS TECHNICIAN (LCIS TECH), MARINE ENGINEERING ARTICIFER (MAR ENG ART), MARINE ENGINEERING TECHNICIAN (MAR ENG TECH), MEDICAL TECHNICIAN PHYSICIAN ASSISTANT (MED TECH PA), MEDICAL TECHNICIAN OPERATING ROOM TECHNICIAN (MED TECH OR), MEDICAL TECHNICIAN PREVENTATIVE MEDICINE TECHNICIAN (MED TECH PMED), MEDICAL TECHNICIAN AERO-MEDICAL TECHNICIAN (MED TECH AEROMED), MEDICAL LABORATORY TECHNOLOGIST (MLAB TECH), MEDICAL RADIATION TECHNOLOGIST (MRAD TECH), MILITARY POLICE (MP), NAVAL COMBAT INFORMATION OPERATOR (NCI OP), NAVAL ELECTRONIC SENSOR OPERATOR (NES OP), NAVAL ELECTRONICS TECHNICIAN (ACOUSTIC) (NE TECH (A)), NAVAL ELECTRONICS TECHNICIAN COMMUNICATIONS (NE TECH (C)), NAVAL ELECTRONICS TECHNICIAN TACTICAL (NE TECH (T)), NAVAL ELECTRONICS TECHNICIAN (MANAGER) (NE TECH (M)), NON DESTRUCTIVE TESTING TECHNICIAN (NDT TECH), NAVAL WEAPONS TECHNICIAN (NW TECH), SEARCH AND RESCUE TECHNICIAN (SAR TECH), TACTICAL ACOUSTIC SENSOR OPERATOR (TAS OP)

DETAILS: THIS RESTRUCTURE WILL INTRODUCE A NEW MILITARY OCCUPATIONAL STRUCTURE (MOS) AND MANAGEMENT FRAMEWORK FOR THE STRUCTURING, TRAINING, PERSONNEL DEVELOPMENT AND CAREER MANAGEMENT OF AFFECTED OCC

THE REGULAR FORCE (REG F) OCC WILL BE DIVIDED INTO TWO SUB-DIVISIONS CONSISTING OF JUNIOR (JR) AND OCC QUALIFIED SUB-DIVISION. THOSE PRIMARY RESERVE (P RES) OCC THAT MUST BE FULLY QUALIFIED TO THE REG F OCC STANDARDS WILL ALSO BE RESTRUCTURED ACCORDINGLY

ESTABLISHMENT DETAIL: DIRECTORATE OF FORCE PLANNING AND PROGRAM COORDINATION (DFPPC) WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONVERSION OF OCC GROUP IDENTIFICATION. DFPPC, IN CONJUNCTION WITH DIRECTORATE MILITARY HUMAN RESOURCE REQUIREMENTS (DMHRR) AND DIRECTORATE HUMAN RESOURCES INFORMATION MANAGEMENT (DHRIM) WILL DEVELOP AN ACTION AND IMPLEMENTATION STRATEGY THAT WILL AMEND THE OCCUPATIONAL TABLES, OCCUPATIONAL GROUP TABLES AND THE ESTABLISHMENT DATABASE WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENCE (DND) HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (HRMS)

DFPPC STAFF IN CONJUNCTION WITH DMHRR AND DHRIM WILL:

ENSURE THAT ALL EXISTING OCC POSITIONS ARE REASSIGNED TO THE NEW OCC STRUCTURE, AND

PROCEED WITH A MASTER ESTABLISHMENT CHANGE (EC)

HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM (HRMS): ENVIRONMENTAL COMMANDS ARE TO PROVIDE DIRECTION TO UNIT BOR/URS TO UPDATE PERSONNEL (PERS) MATRIX PROVIDED BY DHRIM

DHRIM WILL BE RESPONSIBLE TO:

MOVE ALL REG F AND P RES TO THEIR NEW SUB-DIVISION, AT THE APPLICABLE QUALIFICATION LEVEL (QL), EFFECTIVE 1 AUG 04, AND

ANNOTATE APPLICABLE AUTOMATED PERS FILES

INDIVIDUAL TRAINING: NO CONVERSION TRAINING (CT) WILL BE REQUIRED AS A RESULT OF THIS NEW STRUCTURE

QUALIFICATION MANAGEMENT: MOSART WILL BE RESPONSIBLE TO:

CREATE AND ISSUE NEW CODES FOR USE WITH THE NEW STRUCTURES, AND

DMHRR 4-2-5 WILL CREATE NEW OCC IN HRMS

MANUAL URS ACTION IS STILL REQUIRED TO AWARD MEMBERS THE APPROPRIATE QL IN THE MEMBER OCC PANEL

RECRUITING: NEW RECRUITING INFORMATION AIDS (RIA) AND VIDEO UPDATES MAY BE REQUIRED TO REFLECT THE STRUCTURAL CHANGES AND PROGRESSION REQUIREMENTS. ADM (PA) WILL BE RESPONSIBLE TO:

IN CONSULTATION WITH THE BRANCH/MA AMEND THE RECRUITING LITERATURE, AND

UPDATE THE APPROPRIATE RECRUITING VIDEOS

COMPENSATION AND BENEFITS: UPON OSIP IMPLEMENTATION ALL MEMBERS WHO HAVE ACHIEVED THE RANK OF LS/CPL AND ARE IN RECEIPT OF SPECIALIST PAY AS OF 31 JUL 04, INCLUDING ACTING LACKING, WILL BE ASSIGNED TO THE OCC QUALIFIED SUBDIVISION AND WILL CONTINUE TO RECEIVE THOSE RATES OF PAY. EFFECTIVE 1 AUG 04 PERSONNEL NOT INCLUDED AS OUTLINED ABOVE WHO HAVE NOT REPEAT NOT ACHIEVED THE OCC QUALIFICATIONS REQUIRED FOR THEIR RANK, AS DETAILED IN THE OSIP, WILL BE ASSIGNED TO THE JR SUBDIVISION AND WILL BE ENTITLED TO PAY AT THE RATE OF PAY ASSIGNED TO THAT SUBDIVISION. FURTHER ADMIN DETAILS WILL BE PROVIDED BY DPPD TO UNIT ADMIN STAFF


PERSONNEL RECORDS: IT IS TO THE MEMBER S ADVANTAGE TO ENSURE THAT PERS RECORDS REFLECT THEIR PARTICULAR QUALIFICATIONS AND THEY SHOULD BRING TO THE ATTENTION OF THEIR SUPERVISORS ANY DISCREPANCY. THE FOLLOWING RECORDS SHALL BE AMENDED:


HRMS AUTOMATED: HRMS RECORDS WILL REFLECT THE STRUCTURAL CHANGES RESULTING FROM THE CREATION OF THE NEW SUB-DIVISIONS UPON COMPLETION OF MOSID AND ESTABLISHMENT ACTION IAW REF. FUTURE OUTPUT PRODUCTS FROM THE NDHQ PRR WILL AUTOMATICALLY REFLECT THE APPLICABLE MOSID,


NON-HRMS AUTOMATED: INDIVIDUAL SYSTEM OWNERS MUST MODIFY/UPDATE STAND-ALONE IT SYSTEMS TO REFLECT THE NEW SUB-DIVISIONAL STRUCTURE,


MANUAL: THE BASE/WING OR URS WILL AMEND THE MEDICAL AND DENTAL RECORDS, UERS, CONDUCT SHEETS (IF APPLICABLE) AND THE MEMBERS PERS FILES AND PRRS TO REFLECT THE NEW MOSID, AND


PAY: CCPS WILL BE UPDATED SEPARATELY USING THE NEW MOSID CODES. DIRECTOR GENERAL ACCOUNTS PROCESSING PAY AND PENSIONS (DGAPPP) WILL ENSURE THAT THE MASTER PAY RECORD IS AMENDED TO REFLECT THE STRUCTURAL CHANGE OF THE NEW OCC. DIRECTORATE PAY POLICY AND DEVELOPMENT (DPPD) WILL LIAISE WITH DGAPPP ON ANY PAY POLICY MATTERS THAT ARISE BECAUSE OF A CHANGE IN THE STRUCTURE CONCERNED IN THIS OSIP


MEDICAL STANDARDS: THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO THE MEDICAL STANDARDS AS A RESULT OF THIS OSIP


SECURITY CLEARANCE: THERE WILL BE NO CHANGE TO THE SECURITY CLEARANCE LEVEL FOR THE OCC


DOCUMENTATION AMENDMENTS: THE OSIP TEAM AND NDHQ OPIS WILL BE RESPONSIBLE TO IDENTIFY ANY PUBLICATIONS INCL CFAO, DAOD, QR&O, STANAGS, ATO OR CFTO THAT WILL REQUIRE AMENDMENTS TO REFLECT THE STRUCTURAL CHANGES


PROGRESS REVIEW UPDATE: EACH OCI SHALL PROVIDE MOSART WITH QUARTERLY PROGRESS REPORTS AND, IN THE EVENT OF ANY UNFORESEEN DIFFICULTY IN THEIR AREA OF RESPONSIBILITY, PROVIDE EXCEPTION REPORTS


Poetboy,
So as a brand new member your complaining....I notice that Preventative Medicine techs are included. They are Med Techs who OT to that trade (after 4 yrs and earning their ql 5) do their course, be promote to MCpl, then work for 3-5 yrs as a PMED, and only then get their spec pay at the completion of their 6A course.....

As bad as it is for you...Its always worse for someone else....

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

For my trade, MS and above are entitled to Spec 1 LS and below are not. For the two other operator trades you must be LS QL5 qualified. you get shafted, it happens its a fact of life, get over it. I am not happy of the situation either but its the way things are.

 

[poetboy]

Excuse me????

What are you talking about?   These are not Spec Pay.  

Pilots, Doctors and Lawyers are separate Pay Scales.

Field Pay, Sea Pay, Jump Allowances, etc. are all allowances that all members of the CF, no matter what Pay Scale they may have, including Spec Pay, are entitled to if they are filling a position in such a role.



GW

What are YOU talking about?? I was making it clear that they ARE NOT part of the spec pay category that they ARE separate pay categories. Please read posts carefully before responding.

It seems that this thread has become convoluted with people more inclined to tell me that their lot is always much worse than mine. I should shut up and toe the line. All right. Point taken, I could always have it worse and some do.

The original point that I made and still make WAS:

-  It was being being paid to unqualified Cpl's last month, it is not being paid to new Cpl's this month. The training hasn't changed, the requirements haven't changed, the work hasn't changed. Only the pay. End of story. End of posts. I apoligize if I have offended other trades that don't receive spec pay or have similar difficulties in receiving it. I was being specific in my complaint and expected responses to deal with that issue in point.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Well I think all bases have been covered in this discussion and before it turns into a flame war on who deserves it and who doesn't I am going to shut it down.

 

[KaptKain]

I am a reservist doing the CT to the Regs. I am going LCIS and was curious about spec pay.
I am getting in as a Cpl from my accumulated Res. time. Have to do my POET and QL3 LCIS before being put out on the floor.
Can anybody confirm or refer me to documentation on when I would be eligible to collect spec pay? Some say cause I join as Cpl I will collect spec pay after my QL3. Others say I do not collect spec pay till I am QL5 qualified.
Anybody able to confirm the truth...or a link to the truth (Canforgens)?
(Tried to find, but no luck so far)

NOTE: MY CF Recruit Centre has no idea or cannot confirm when i collect. I am usign these forums for another reference to the question.

 

[KaptKain]

Well I was able to find out for myself the answer.
Spec pay is not granted until you are QL5A qualified. Effective 1Aug04.
If you wer in the trade before hand the grandfather clause is there for the Pte/Cpl that are not 5A qualified.
GRRRR

 

[aesop081]

I just had to go trough all that "dog's breakfast" !!

I remustered to AESOp from combat engineer in april and started collecting spec pay right from the start even though i was not QL5A because i came in the trade as a Cpl.  Recently a CANFORGEN came out amending this policy.  Begining 0ctober 1st of this year, all pers coming in to a spec trade, would no longer receive spec pay until they were qualified QL5A. The trades were then split in to the MOC and MOC Junior (jr) on MPRR's.  What happened to us is that we camne into the trade prior to the new policy taking effect.  NDHQ took our spec pay away and clawed back the spec pay already dished out leaving me with $0.00 on payday !!  They subsequently corrected that error and gave me back my money !!

 

[hiv]

Tell me about it! I was promoted about 3 months ago and I finally had the pay show up on this pay statement. However, they felt it necessary to subtract $1,200 worth of spec pay off my back pay for some mysterious reason. The OR said it was a flaw in the pay statement that had been affecting many people....makes you think maybe they could fix it...