CAF Sexual Misconduct PR War- Swerved Into a Mess Discussion

No surprise and pretty much expected. The SMSRC seems to be picking up speed in its delivery and the upcoming zoom discussion on April 11 will be interesting. Curious if Lise Bourgon will be attending and ask for "more positive" stories from MST survivors to help recruiting efforts again...

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Milnet.ca Staff

 

[Jarnhamar]

MSN

Lt.-Gen. Jennie Carignan said Thursday the force is now tracking the link between drinking and misconduct and identified a "spike" in sexual misconduct cases in "the December time frame."

What a ground breaking discovery.

but said the decision would be up to regional military leaders, based on factors such as the ranks and ages of affected members.

Gee I wonder what that would look like.

He said the move to restrict alcohol consumption sent a "clear message" and set a standard of behaviour in the navy. He said that while he has no empirical data showing "to what extent it actually translated into a reduction in alcohol related issues," he heard positive feedback.

"The chain of command at all levels were highly supportive of the decision and that it did send a clear message," he said.

But not everyone was happy with the change.

"There certainly was blowback both inside the rank-and-file and a number of veterans,"

All the officers telling him what a great idea it was. Imagine that lol

 

[daftandbarmy]

As for making dinners "dry", nothing builds morale like treating your people like children... It's already hard to get people to come out for events, making them "dry" pretty much puts the final nail in the coffin for things like mess dinners.

And when you treat people like children, oddly enough, they start acting like children.

This will be fun to watch (from the retired cheap seats ).

 

[Furniture]

And when you treat people like children, oddly enough, they start acting like children.

This will be fun to watch (from the retired cheap seats ).

100% People as a general rule live up (or down) to your expectations, though some require a bit of corrective action on occasion.

 

[Haggis]

100% People as a general rule live up (or down) to your expectations, though some require a bit of corrective action on occasion.

That's the part that was missing in the past.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If you have consequences and don't enforce them, all you have are empty threats.

Much like getting a 5B:

"ooooh I'm so scared..."

Vice getting an appropriate Administrative or Disciplinary action that can cost the person time, money, and their career:

"....I ....think I have made a grave error..."

 

[McG]

The old model mess is obsolete. But the CAF doesn't do change well.

Here is the right answer. We need messes because they do serve an essential function. But the current system of messes that inculcate a drinking culture are not serving that function.

The current system of base messes that bring all regiments and units (regardless of L1) together is the right structure. The current structure of junior ranks, senior NCOs (yes, I am using the NATO definition), of officers is also correct … and the distinctiveness of the sr NCO mess is probably the most important element of that.

How do we reimagine messes that build unity across unit lines and include people who don’t drink? How do we build messes that don’t need alcohol as the central pillar to 90% of what they do?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I honestly think that ship has sailed.
I think our members already give enough to the workplace and/or operations. All messes are is even more time given to the beast instead of family/decompress time.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Here is the right answer. We need messes because they do serve an essential function. But the current system of messes that inculcate a drinking culture are not serving that function.

The current system of base messes that bring all regiments and units (regardless of L1) together is the right structure. The current structure of junior ranks, senior NCOs (yes, I am using the NATO definition), of officers is also correct … and the distinctiveness of the sr NCO mess is probably the most important element of that.

How do we reimagine messes that build unity across unit lines and include people who don’t drink? How do we build messes that don’t need alcohol as the central pillar to 90% of what they do?

When I was PMC of the JR Mess, I made it my mission to stage the mess around the model of a private member's club vice a bar that does stuff.

We found events that were going on around town and offered preferred pricing to membership. We would host family friendly events like kid's movie nights or Mother's Day Brunch. We would host PD Breakfasts and networking events. The bar flys hated it, but we saw more members getting their money's worth that were entirely opposed to "going to the bar Jrs to tie one on..."

Have them be the place to meet and socialize. That takes on many forms. My current mess does a great job of putting on a TGIF that is more like going out to dinner with friends. I have brought my Domeatic Sergeant Major to these events and she has commented that if more mess events were like that, she wouldn't have avoided the mess for the 14 years we've been married.

 

[daftandbarmy]

When I was PMC of the JR Mess, I made it my mission to stage the mess around the model of a private member's club vice a bar that does stuff.

We found events that were going on around town and offered preferred pricing to membership. We would host family friendly events like kid's movie nights or Mother's Day Brunch. We would host PD Breakfasts and networking events. The bar flys hated it, but we saw more members getting their money's worth that were entirely opposed to "going to the bar Jrs to tie one on..."

Have them be the place to meet and socialize. That takes on many forms. My current mess does a great job of putting on a TGIF that is more like going out to dinner with friends. I have brought my Domeatic Sergeant Major to these events and she has commented that if more mess events were like that, she wouldn't have avoided the mess for the 14 years we've been married.

My wife stopped coming to our Mess functions when her and two of the other wives (with several advanced degrees and decades in senior leadership positions between them) took umbrage at being described as 'Camp Followers' during a poorly thought out toast by our (idiot) PMC.

I could have canned and sold the discussion the three of them had, after that toast, as an alternative to the usual range of nuclear strike options

 

[rmc_wannabe]

My wife stopped coming to our Mess functions when her and two of the other wives (with several advanced degrees and decades in senior leadership positions between them) took umbrage at being described as 'Camp Followers' during a poorly thought out toast by our (idiot) PMC.

I could have canned and sold the discussion the three of them had, after that toast, as an alternative to the usual range of nuclear strike options

I hope he was very quickly relegated to the wall of former PMCs and reminded about the etiquette involved in hosting guests in the mess.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I hope he was very quickly relegated to the wall of former PMCs and reminded about the etiquette involved in hosting guests in the mess.

Guests?

I thought they were captive props for tawdry, overt displays of unearned martial narcissism?

 

[Furniture]

My wife stopped coming to our Mess functions when her and two of the other wives (with several advanced degrees and decades in senior leadership positions between them) took umbrage at being described as 'Camp Followers' during a poorly thought out toast by our (idiot) PMC.

I could have canned and sold the discussion the three of them had, after that toast, as an alternative to the usual range of nuclear strike options

I'd pretend to be surprised, but there are a lot of people out there lacking the common sense to understand when a joke is appropriate to make and when it isn't.

 

[QV]

Imagine, as a grown ass adult, being told you can’t have more than one drink at a social function because some idiot in another place at another time made stupid. Nanny state on roids.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Imagine, as a grown ass adult, being told you can’t have more than one drink at a social function because some idiot in another place at another time made stupid. Nanny state on roids. Failed to hold another idiot accountable

 FTFY.

The standard you walk past is the standard you accept. It got to this point because people weren't policing their own. Now there's a policy from on high. It's less "nanny state" and more FAFO.

 

[QV]

Police your own like the subway guy?

No, couple idiots act dumb + leadership fail = PLQ punishment

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Police your own like the subway guy?

No, couple idiots act dumb + leadership fail = PLQ punishment

You misunderstood my point about policing your own.

Everyone in the CAF is a leader. From Pte to CDS. You're right it's a leadership failure: from the peers that know buddy can't hold his booze but let him self destruct anyways, the supervisors and commands that turn a blind eye because "He's a good troop and a C&P would kill his career..." to the various others up and down the chain that allow the nonsense to carry on until whoops there's an alcohol induced SA and now everybody's planning a Court Martial.

That's policing your own: using policies and practices already in place to ensure Cpl McFuckFace doesn't become the reason we get treated with kid gloves.

 

[Quirky]

First of all, limiting drinks to the typical max two doesn’t work. Secondly, losers will be losers and alcohol will only weed out the idiots faster. Lastly, the mess used to be worth it when beer was substantially cheaper, now everything has to be equally priced. I’d rather take off the uniform, shower and spend my money supporting the local economy and feel like a normal person. Last thing I want to do after work is have to supervise the same idiots when I just want to relax.

 

[QV]

You misunderstood my point about policing your own.

Everyone in the CAF is a leader. From Pte to CDS. You're right it's a leadership failure: from the peers that know buddy can't hold his booze but let him self destruct anyways, the supervisors and commands that turn a blind eye because "He's a good troop and a C&P would kill his career..." to the various others up and down the chain that allow the nonsense to carry on until whoops there's an alcohol induced SA and now everybody's planning a Court Martial.

That's policing your own: using policies and practices already in place to ensure Cpl McFuckFace doesn't become the reason we get treated with kid gloves.

”Peers that let him self destruct…” wtf is that? …When is the CAF going to grow up and realize that personal accountability is an important adult trait? Maybe the CAF should start holding peers accountable for the lacklustre fitness results of their colleagues as well… or shit marksmanship... or failing PLQ.

The CAF is bleeding people and can’t attract anyone to join… perhaps instead of pink hair and face tats, they ought to look in the mirror and see how they treat people and operate the organization.

Treat people like children and that’s what you get. Treat people like professionals, instil trust, and the outcome will probably surprise you.

 

[Furniture]

”Peers that let him self destruct…” wtf is that? …When is the CAF going to grow up and realize that personal accountability is an important adult trait? Maybe the CAF should start holding peers accountable for the lacklustre fitness results of their colleagues as well… or shit marksmanship... or failing PLQ.

The CAF is bleeding people and can’t attract anyone to join… perhaps instead of pink hair and face tats, they ought to look in the mirror and see how they treat people and operate the organization.

Treat people like children and that’s what you get. Treat people like professionals, instil trust, and the outcome will probably surprise you.

I suspect you're both right. There is definitely an aspect of personal accountability, but there is also an aspect of stepping in when you see things going poorly. Every one of us has seen a friend get a bit too tipsy, and I suspect pretty much every one of us has been that friend on at least one occasion. Having a friend/co-worker step in and calm the situation before someone self-destructs is always a positive thing.

That said, if someone blows off their friend/co-worker and continues down the self-destruct path, that's entirely on them. They should be held accountable, and not excused because otherwise they are a "great worker".

 

[Halifax Tar]

My wife stopped coming to our Mess functions when her and two of the other wives (with several advanced degrees and decades in senior leadership positions between them) took umbrage at being described as 'Camp Followers' during a poorly thought out toast by our (idiot) PMC.

I could have canned and sold the discussion the three of them had, after that toast, as an alternative to the usual range of nuclear strike options

I have a copy somewhere of RCN instructions for young Officers on how to behave and conduct themselves like gentlemen. It covered most aspect of the young Naval Officers life.