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BV206/210 for Peacekeeping/Light Infantry Brigade?

A couple of things to add to this discussion...

First, our BVs are very old - so old that we've had trouble keeping them serviceable and (at one time) resorted to shuttling the fleet across Canada between the Light Battalions as part of the IRF(L) task.

3 PPCLI had substantial numbers of BVs with them precisely because they were the IRF(L)-designated unit when APOLLO lit up.  In the main, if I remember correctly, we deployed TOW BVs - the alternative was TOW Iltis.  Mark C (when he stops looking at houses) can sort me out here.  I can say that they were NOT sent because they represented any type of "special" capability, although they would have come in handy if the BG had stayed long enough to see snow (which is why we also deployed winter kit).  They were sent because that's what 3 PPCLI had at the time.  I was also told that the BVs had significant problems with the dust at KAF and were not well liked.

Contrary to the article, our BVs are not armoured and are not APCs by any stretch of the imagination.  They are (smallish) tracked carriers bought YEARS ago and meant for Arctic ops - that's all.
 
http://www.haggve.se/default.asp

Which is why we should re-invest into the BV-S10.

I could see this being useful for the Reserves as well.
 
it's good to  go in soft, swampy terrain too. I remember Brave Lion, hoofing it through swamps in the valleys , sinking to our knees, following BV tracks a couple inches deep. More than a little aggravating.

I was impressed.

 
Got side-tracked drooling over the CV-90...  ;D

The S-10 appears to be a better vehicle for the purposes of this discussion.  However, I still have trouble seeing it in an APC-type role.  Hagglunds still markets it as a cargo carrier.  Even with the add-on armour, I don't see how it is much better (aside from fitting in a Chinook, etc.) than the M-113 as a combat (vice support) vehicle.  I tend to look at it more like an M548...armour or not.

As for use by the Reserves, I see a number of problems.  First, any tracked vehicle is maintenance-heavy.  If we were to take BVs and distribute them to the units (rather than warehousing them centrally), the maint burden would be extensive.  Secondly, mobility in and out of urban areas (deploying to exercises, for instance) is problematic for a slow, tracked vehicle.  Third (and finally), if the BV isn't really an APC, what role would it have within infantry units?  As I said earlier, we bought the original BVs as an oversnow vehicle designed to deploy to the Norwegian flank...  With that task gone, the job for even an up-armoured BV is problematic.
 
Teddy,

from what I saw when I was in Norway for Battle Griffin this year, the Norwegians had little or no problem using the BV 206s in the reserve role.   The inf. battalion that my LAR unit was attached to, 2/25 was motorised with Norwegian BVs and Norwegian drivers.   The BV crews were comprised of reservists, some of whome had not served in uniform in several years, were recalled for active service for a couple months, given a week refresher course on the BV and then get attached to the Marines with their vehicles.

The BV itself utilizes a form of rubber band track which is relatively maintenance free compared to a Leopard or M113.   We had a higher rate of mechanical breakdown with our LAVs than the battalion had with the BVs.   The BVs cross country mobility was phenomenal.

When compared to the M113, the BV is significantly cheaper to maintain and operate, has better cross country mobility in difficult terrain (snow, swamp, greater range of gradients) and due to its lower ground pressure, is resistant to setting off AT mines.

Inf. units do not need APCs to increase their ground mobility dramatically.   Just look at Iraq and Afghanistan where light units such as the 101st and 82nd Airborne, 10th Mountain, etc. are using HMMWVs as squad/section carriers.  In Norway the Marines have used the BV to motorise their infantry battalion in much the same way that 2nd Marine Expeditionary Brigade (TF Tarawa, of which I was a part) motorised the 2nd and 8th Marine Regiments in 5 ton trucks in Iraq.

Given the increased focus on arctic sovereignty patrols and areas with a high proportion of AT mines that the CFs may find themselves operating in, I think that the BV fleet needs to be reviewed and either the fleet upgraded or replaced with more modern versions.
 
Matt:

All true and good points.  I'd never argue that there's NO place for a BV.  It is, new and properly maintained, a very useful piece of kit.  For Arctic warfare, I agree completely that a replacement for our old ones would be in order.

However, for use as an "airmobile" APC or as a Reserve vehicle, I'd suggest that there are better choices out there.

Can you picture (for instance), four BVs parked at the Kelowna Armoury?  The maint/log burden makes my head spin.  I've also done some time with the Norwegians and their reserve system is somewhat different than ours - most will have been trained as conscripts full time earlier in their careers.  Besides, driving the vehicle isn't the issue - supporting it is.
 
Teddy Ruxpin said:
However, for use as an "airmobile" APC or as a Reserve vehicle, I'd suggest that there are better choices out there.

Can you picture (for instance), four BVs parked at the Kelowna Armoury?   The maint/log burden makes my head spin.  

What would you suggest as a workable 'airmobile' apc?  Wiesel 2 comes to mind, but it doesn't have the range of terrain capability that the BV does, and you cannot put an entire section of troops into it (with kit).

IRT Kelowna Armoury (or any other reserve location independent of a regular maintenance facility), I don't think that parcelling out equipment to the reserves in that manner is a very workable solution either.  I remember the maint. nightmares we had in the BCDs trying to maintain a troop of AVGPs.  Either go hard or go home...
My Marine unit has a company worth of LAVs in Quantico, which is supported by a fulltime and reserve maint. section.  What I'm getting at is economies of scale.  It isn't justifiable to have a full-time maintainer supporting 4 BVs at a reserve location, however if you've got an actual company/squadron worth, it becomes easier to arrange a maint. section to support those vehicles.  Additionally, the lack of EME/maintainer elements in Canadian reserve units is another drawback. 

I could get into a whole tirade about the current ineffectiveness of the Canadian reserve system, but that would be hijacking the very thread I started...In a reserve setting, I believe that a vehicle such as the BV would best be pooled at the Area/Brigade level and used on an as needed basis.  Additionally, until the reserve units get a definite tasking such as mountain/arctic ops, I don't see acquiring large numbers of BVs for them to use is particularly practical or useful to equip the reserve forces.  Now with that said, the BV may be a potentially excellent vehicle for dom ops type usage (snowstorms, floods, urban disaster, etc.).
 
Matt_Fisher said:
What would you suggest as a workable 'airmobile' apc?   Wiesel 2 comes to mind, but it doesn't have the range of terrain capability that the BV does, and you cannot put an entire section of troops into it (with kit).

Actually, I'm not sure I would suggest an airmobile APC.  We used the Wiesel to great effect in Kabul (both the cannon and TOW varieties) and it is easily transportable by heavy lift helicopter.  My feeling is that heliborne infantry use helicopters as their mobility - armoured vehicles should be present (if at all) to add firepower on the ground.  Wiesel does that very well.

 
Hi,
Just come across this discussion on the BV206 and S10...

I have found another articulated vehicle like them, known as the "Bronco"... it's manufactured in Singapore and is has a huge order for the Singapore Army. They have made many variants of the original troop carrier Bronco.

I understand, too, that it has given the S-10 a good run for its money and it is a strong contender (and competitor to S-10) in countries such as Finland and France. Besides, it has much superior armour, higher payload (5tons for the Bronco vs S-10's 2.8tons), operates just as well over various terrains (including snow/artic)... and are cheaper.  :)

Here's a website i found on the internet:
http://www.one35th.com/attc/attc_intro2.htm

ndp05-attc14.jpg


Hope you'll find this useful... Cheers.

gaix

 
gaix said:
Hi,
Just come across this discussion on the BV206 and S10...

I have found another articulated vehicle like them, known as the "Bronco"... it's manufactured in Singapore and is has a huge order for the Singapore Army. They have made many variants of the original troop carrier Bronco.

I understand, too, that it has given the S-10 a good run for its money and it is a strong contender (and competitor to S-10) in countries such as Finland and France. Besides, it has much superior armour, higher payload (5tons for the Bronco vs S-10's 2.8tons), operates just as well over various terrains (including snow/artic)... and are cheaper.  :)

Here's a website i found on the internet:
http://www.one35th.com/attc/attc_intro2.htm

ndp05-attc14.jpg


Hope you'll find this useful... Cheers.

gaix

You mean this ???  http://www.stengg.com/upload/3044EfhjWheIDRO0NHh.pdf

There's a video too though : http://www.stengg.com/upload/31451XWaPBcUA8QJWmK.wmv


The specs certainly look more impressive. The range and payload itself is really impressive.
 
The problem I see with the Bronco is that even in unladen mode a CH-47 could only carry it for a short distance.  Combat loaded I don't think it could get it off the ground. 

The BvS10 on the other hand can be lifted by CH-47 underslung.  The Bv206S is even more portable as is the unarmoured Bv206.

In our north the combination of a Bv206/BvS10 force moving on the ground via open ground, frozen lakes and rivers, or even via muskeg, supported by CH-47s capable of lifting them over obstacles to recommence the patrol, conducting resupply and evacuations seems to be an alternative to "Chindits with mules and Dakotas".

Cheers.
 
CommonSenseNCO said:
Honestly, save the BV fo winter time, it's awesome. In Afghanistan the boys didn't want it. In the snow, it's the best thing since snowshoes.

I don't entirely agree....yes they have their limitations but I can tell you that I managed on a few occasions to get a BV 206 to the top of Mount Kent in the Falkland Islands...They are not perfect but are certainly a very useful bit of kit and can be used within reason on some varied and otherwise impossible terrain.

We were certainly glad we had access to them, although the arse end was blown off one when it strayed off the cleared track and was taken out by an Argy AT mine and turned into a four poster bed left as a warning at the side of the track.
 
I remember seeing a BV/206 while i was enemy force for one of the SQ courses and at first sight  i didn't think much of the Vehicle, But when i actually got to see it move and perform, I was very impressed with it, It moved Alot faster then i had thought it would have and was very versatile.

 
The BV 206 is an outstanding piece of kit, despite its inherent limitations.  They are reliable (Mercedes engine), versatile, agile, and capable of winter mountain-climbing feats that you wouldn't believe until you see it first-hand.  I rode in one straight up the side of a glacier in the Yukon a few years ago and was instantly sold.  Conversely, they didn't handle the rocks and sand of Afghanistan all that well when we air-mech assaulted two of them onto the Whale Feature in the Shah-i-Kot 3 years ago.  The rocks got into the the road wheels resulting in thrown tracks.  The new track and tensionable suspension that we have may make a difference there - I can't say until we put it to the test. 

We have 20+ BV variants in 3 PPCLI and they are THE solution for winter mobility.  Cat's arse.

Mark C
 
For what it's worth, the Italians have a number of armoured and un-armoured BV206's deployed in Afghanistan with KMNB HQ. They're from an Alpini Brigade and use them as their deployable HQ/CP vehs.
 
Mark C and others who have bv206 in their units,

Do you use the 206s a lot or are they "hangar-queens"?  The Army is looking at getting rid of them unless their is an op reason for keeping them.  Would love to hear your comments and particularly your substantion from an op, not trg, perspective.  Please give it to me off line or in this forum, your choice.

Sandbag
 
Kirkhill said:
The problem I see with the Bronco is that even in unladen mode a CH-47 could only carry it for a short distance.  Combat loaded I don't think it could get it off the ground. 

The BvS10 on the other hand can be lifted by CH-47 underslung.   The Bv206S is even more portable as is the unarmoured Bv206.

In our north the combination of a Bv206/BvS10 force moving on the ground via open ground, frozen lakes and rivers, or even via muskeg, supported by CH-47s capable of lifting them over obstacles to recommence the patrol, conducting resupply and evacuations seems to be an alternative to "Chindits with mules and Dakotas".

Cheers.
I wonder if you might develop this idea a little further ,I think you may be on to something quite important.

  Best reguards , Gordon
 
I think that with the renewed interest in arctic sovereignty/defence, a renewed BV 206 fleet is looking more and more appealing, perhaps with the option for pre-positioning the fleet strategically in the NT/NU (in conjunction with other stocks needed for a regional response TF)around all-season airstrips where you could fly-in a TF organization to marry up with.
 
My basic point was compatibility - I just wanted to emphasize that whatever we buy, for whatever task, it is not sufficient just to look at an individual component (like the Bv206) in isolation from other elements of the system within which it might be employed.

In this particular case, I am shamelessly stealing ideas put forward by others on this site and that yankee chap that keeps on ranting about Gavins and the Air Mech Battle.  Don't like his conclusions about the M113 vs LAV but he does have a point about air mobility.

I have been brought to see the world as consisting of two primary environments.  Settled and Unsettled.  The settled areas have all the cities, fields, roads and people.  The unsettled areas have none of the above.  As the world urbanizes and people give up nomadic lifestyles they move into the settled areas.  While the settled areas are expanding somewhat, the settleable areas are broadly limited by geography (lack of heat, too much heat, lack of water, too much water or snow etc).  The net effect is that while the earth's population is growing it is my belief that overall more of the earth is becoming UNinhabited, unsettled.

Such open areas, historically, have become havens for people that don't like the restrictions of urban life and prefer to live by their own rules, outside the law.  They often end up at the very least as threats to trade and commerce.  Occasionally they grow as communities and become large enough and successful enough to challenge existing communities and force themselves onto the world stage as a new country.

Any government that wants to protect its settled citizens, and also protect its resource base as well as trade and commerce needs to be able to control both its settled areas and its unsettled areas. In some respects controlling the settled areas in easier than the unsettled areas in that, IF the government is supported by its citizens, then the settled areas are in large part self-policing.  Citizens control the behaviour of other citizens through gossip and disapproving looks more effectively than police and courts, or the army, can control behaviour.  Even in rural areas where farms are miles apart the presence of a fence and the knowledge that a farmer might be in the area watching acts as a deterrent to anti-social behaviour by most citizens.

In unsettled areas there are no such checks.  It then falls to the government to create that sense of "territoriality" by establishing a presence in the unsettled areas.  One way to do this is by establishing a regular, and frequent programme of surface patrols.  This was the original concept behind the Mounties.  They put a man in uniform, indicating he had the support of the state behind him, on a horse, to give him mobility, and then sent him out to meet people and remind them of whose territory this was, whose laws were in effect and the consequences of disobeying those laws.

This is the much derided constabulary duty ( "when constabulary duty's to be done, to be done, a policeman's lot is not an 'appy one, 'appy one" - pace Gilbert and Sullivan).

While much emphasis is being put on controlling people in urban settings, internationally (domestically things are pretty well in hand), that is after all where a small number of terrorists can have a great impact and can blend in relatively easily with the crowd, there is also a threat from all those wide open spaces that governments aren't controlling.  The unsettled areas, both on land and at sea, while they may not be able to support millions of people they can easily support tens and possibly even hundreds in isolated communities.  These areas need to be patrolled.  The navies of the world handle the high seas.  These are rightly seen as international territory - everybody's problem, everybody's responsibility and controlling them is in the interest of a large number of very wealthy governments.

On land the problem is more complex because all the land between settled areas has been carved up by borders to create jurisdictions for governments of settled areas.  These borders offer them areas in which to expand, to harvest resources and to communicate with neighbouring settlements.  They also are areas that they have to ensure that people follow their laws.  Poor countries, with few resources and large territories can't do this and need help (whether they realize it or want it or not - if they can't control their borders and a threat to their neighbours arises within their jurisdiction then they can reasonably expect that their neighbour will take action to eliminate the threat - just as a frustrated neighbour may trespass to cut down the weeds in an untended vacant lot).

One means by which Canada can contribute to "securing" the world, permitting trade and commerce and reducing the opportunities for outlaws to get established, is by contributing to this patrolling of the wilds, just as it contributes to patrolling the high seas.

This patrolling does not require large concentrated bodies of troops.  It does require large numbers of troops.  It does require a strong, mobile reaction force to back up the patrols.  It also requires patrols to be strong enough to discourage action by anything less than a force supported by state assets.  By this I mean that the patrol needs to be big enough to handle a few guys with machine guns and RPGs on its own.  If somebody is able to organize a platoon of tanks to oppose the patrol then things are moving rapidly beyond the realm of your run of the mill constabulary duties and somebody needs to make a phone call.

The characteristics of these types of constabulary patrols are presence, mobility and personal contact. 

Presence demands that somebody be in the area to assert the government's claim.  Mobility is necessary to make best use out of that individual and allow territory to be covered.  Personal contact is required to allow those in the area to decide whether they find the government's representative trustworthy.  If there is no personal contact they will ultimately assume the worst.

So we need troops on the ground in wild areas.  They need the means to move where there are no roads and no gas stations.  And they need to be able to reside in their areas of interest for extended periods of time.  They also need timely support.

Helicopters are often touted as a solution to this type of problem but I see them as only part of the solution.  A pure helicopter force fails on the personal contact front and is severely challenged on the presence front.  The folks on the ground don't get a chance to meet the inhabitants of that noisy beast flying overhead at all hours and are thus likely to start thinking nasty thoughts, to the detriment of the crew's welfare.  As well helicopters are expensive to operate therefore patrols are likely to be infrequent.

By contrast a surface force is relatively cheap to keep in the area.  It doesn't require gas to keep it from crashing, just to move it.  The options for supplying mobility to a force are wheels, tracks, hulls and aircushions.  Aircushions are almost as expensive as helicopters.  Wheels are useful in many parts of the world and not so much in others.  Canada is one of those areas where they are not so useful.  That leaves tracks and hulls.  Both of these are useful both domestically and internationally.  They allow much of the unsettled area of the world to be patrolled by exploiting rivers, and lakes as well as some very difficult terrain, regardless of season.

However they suffer from limitations.  Boats can only travel on water.  They don't cross land so well.  Tracks, generally, can't travel great distances before they were out, they tend to be slow and, for all their capabilities, there is terrain that they can't cross. 

The Bv206, which marries the hull of a boat with tracks can handle most terrain in most seasons but it is slow, requires gas and needs tracks and repairs as much as any vehicle.  While it can cross water it can't compete with a boat on water.

Fortunately it and rigid hull inflatable boats are both transportable by helicopters.  By marrying a Bv206/RHIB force with a helicopter like the CH-47 to lift them over obstacles then there is very little terrain that could not be patrolled.  The CH-47, together with smaller helos like the CH-146 and fixed wing aircraft like the C27J/C295/C130 could support a Bv206/RHIB based force in the field indefinitely.  It would also allow the force to be repositioned as needed to increase its area of influence. The aircraft are all capable of carrying the Bv206 and the RHIB and may be capable of airdropping them.  The CH-47 can recover them from anywhere to a suitable landing strip where they can be reloaded onto the aircraft.

Unfortunately the Bv206 and the RHIB are not armoured and thus at risk to small arms fire from discontented locals.  There are however armoured versions of the Bv206, theBv206S and the BvS10 which handle and maintain similarly to the Bv206 and are air portable.  The Swedes have also developed armoured patrol boats (Stridsbats) that are probably sufficiently similar to the RHIB that forces trained and organised on RHIBs could also manage to operate with Stridsbats after some conversion training.  They too fall in the weight envelope for air deployment.

What all of this suggests to me is an opportunity to create this light infantry force, equipped to operate in hostile terrain overseas in armoured vehicles and supported by CH-147/CH47/C27J/C130J, but which could usefully train domestically and simultaneously enhance national sovereignty claims by conducting patrols in our own bush and arctic.  Operations of such a force in conjunction with Naval assets, whether JSS, amphibious transports or troop carrying ice-breakers could also be part of the mix.  The Stridsbats/RHIBs would function equally well operating from those vessels in the arctic, on the Great Lakes or amongst West Coast islands.  They would be equally at home on the St-Lawrence, Lake Winnipeg or the MacKenzie river.  Internationally they would work in any of the worlds tropical rivers and deltas.  Borneo, Malaya and Vietnam were all riverine wars.  Iraq has its own riverine problems - in fact most settled areas are characterized by the presence of rivers. 

There would be employment.  If only to assist in supplying port security to the Navy.

Ramble ends. 

You asked for it Gordon. ;D :salute:
 
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