Bringing 'Em Back or Not? (I.D.'ed Cdn ISIS fighters, families, kids?)

[daftandbarmy]

I have a few issues with this.

First, what does citizenship by birth in your home country mean if it can be taken away? We can agree with the legal premise for doing it in this case, but what future crime could it become a sanction for under the right (or wrong) circumstances?

Second, it leaves her stateless, which should always be avoided in operations of law.

Third, and I think most compelling: she was a youth. She was 15 when she made her horribly poor decision to do what she did. Teenagers are idiots, and are vulnerable to ideological exploitation, which is what happened with a lot of these cases of young women who traveled to join ISIS and marry fighters. Kids need to be protected, including from themselves.

Many will disagree, but that’s how I see this one. And I’m not at all naive to the reality of what these extremist travelers chose and did.

She's no ordinary kid, apparently:

I know Shamima Begum better than most - we need to stop saying she was some kind of victim: 'Danger tourist' who befriended ISIS bride in prison camp says she 'isn't a dumb kid' - and wonders if she was trying to groom him during time together​

A tourist who befriended ISIS bride Shamima Begum has urged people not to treat the jihadi as a victim.

Father-of-four Andrew Drury, 56, is a 'danger tourist' from Surrey who has travelled to destinations including North Korea, Chernobyl and Iraq.

He formed a 'strong friendship' with Begum over the last two years, meeting her first in June 2021 at the al-Roj prison camp in Syria, before he spoke to her via WhatsApp and kept visiting her.

The jihadi bride today lost her bid to strike down the Government's decision to revoke her UK nationality for travelling to join ISIS aged 15.

Mr Drury wrote in The Spectator: 'We need to stop saying that Shamima was some kind of teenage victim.

'Everyone is an individual, responsible to some degree for their own actions.

'She was certainly mature enough to get herself through airports and over the Turkish-Syrian border.

'This isn't a dumb kid.'

Mr Drury last saw Begum in June 2022 and has since wondered if she was trying to groom him during their time together.

He said while he has 'mixed feelings' about her citizenship being revoked the Isis bride has 'shocked' him by saying she was 'over' the death of her children.

I know Shamima Begum - we need to stop saying she was a victim

Father-of-four Andrew Drury, 56, from Surrey, got to know Isis bride Shamima Begum (pictured together) over the last two years after he met her at a prison camp in Syria.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[brihard]

She's no ordinary kid, apparently:

I know Shamima Begum better than most - we need to stop saying she was some kind of victim: 'Danger tourist' who befriended ISIS bride in prison camp says she 'isn't a dumb kid' - and wonders if she was trying to groom him during time together​

A tourist who befriended ISIS bride Shamima Begum has urged people not to treat the jihadi as a victim.

Father-of-four Andrew Drury, 56, is a 'danger tourist' from Surrey who has travelled to destinations including North Korea, Chernobyl and Iraq.

He formed a 'strong friendship' with Begum over the last two years, meeting her first in June 2021 at the al-Roj prison camp in Syria, before he spoke to her via WhatsApp and kept visiting her.

The jihadi bride today lost her bid to strike down the Government's decision to revoke her UK nationality for travelling to join ISIS aged 15.

Mr Drury wrote in The Spectator: 'We need to stop saying that Shamima was some kind of teenage victim.

'Everyone is an individual, responsible to some degree for their own actions.

'She was certainly mature enough to get herself through airports and over the Turkish-Syrian border.

'This isn't a dumb kid.'

Mr Drury last saw Begum in June 2022 and has since wondered if she was trying to groom him during their time together.

He said while he has 'mixed feelings' about her citizenship being revoked the Isis bride has 'shocked' him by saying she was 'over' the death of her children.

I know Shamima Begum - we need to stop saying she was a victim

Father-of-four Andrew Drury, 56, from Surrey, got to know Isis bride Shamima Begum (pictured together) over the last two years after he met her at a prison camp in Syria.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Sure, I’m not doubting that she’s a piece of shit, or a security risk. But nothing in this dude’s observations - meeting her six years after she left the UK and traveled to Syria - are germane to the concerns I raised.

Western countries should be handling our own messes, not abandoning our garbage overseas. It may be expedient, but I personally can’t consider it right.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You can also bring them home, not give them $10 million, and criminally charge them. We seem to have figured that out as an option already.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6706046

Id rather just leave them where they are.

 

[brihard]

Id rather just leave them where they are.

Yeah but IMO that’s just dumping our problems on another government (or on something trying to be one). It’s shifting a burden that rightfully should be ours onto them.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Yeah but IMO that’s just dumping our problems on another government (or on something trying to be one). It’s shifting a burden that rightfully should be ours onto them.

And I'm ok with that. I expect they are more willing to level an appropriate justice.

 

[brihard]

And I'm ok with that. I expect they are more willing to level an appropriate justice.

They’re actually desperately trying to get foreign countries to take their problem children back.

 

[Halifax Tar]

They’re actually desperately trying to get foreign countries to take their problem children back.

Pass, thanks for asking though.

 

[brihard]

Pass, thanks for asking though.

Thing is they ain’t asking you or me. They asked the courts, and the courts said “yup”.

 

[RangerRay]

What isn’t clear to me is she a naturalized citizen or was she born in the UK? I didn’t think it would be possible to revoke the citizenship of someone born in the country.

 

[brihard]

What isn’t clear to me is she a naturalized citizen or was she born in the UK? I didn’t think it would be possible to revoke the citizenship of someone born in the country.

British born. They passed a law allowing for exactly that.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Sure, I’m not doubting that she’s a piece of shit, or a security risk. But nothing in this dude’s observations - meeting her six years after she left the UK and traveled to Syria - are germane to the concerns I raised.

Western countries should be handling our own messes, not abandoning our garbage overseas. It may be expedient, but I personally can’t consider it right.

She wasn't our mess. She went to another place and became a mess. Her crimes were perpetrated against those people, not us. Up against the wall, blindfold and cigarette time. Or rot in a deep dark hole. Whatever.

 

[brihard]

She wasn't our mess. She went to another place and became a mess. Her crimes were perpetrated against those people, not us. Up against the wall, blindfold and cigarette time. Or rot in a deep dark hole. Whatever.

She was Britain’s mess. By “our mess” I’m referring to similarly situated Canadians, of which there are several. Analogous situations, different domestic laws.

I don’t believe in making people stateless, and I believe countries bear responsibility for our citizens, including repatriating those who do things like this elsewhere and dealing with them under domestic laws, flawed as they may be. I won’t be convinced otherwise.

 

[Kat Stevens]

She was Britain’s mess. By “our mess” I’m referring to similarly situated Canadians, of which there are several. Analogous situations, different domestic laws.

I don’t believe in making people stateless, and I believe countries bear responsibility for our citizens, including repatriating those who do things like this elsewhere and dealing with them under domestic laws, flawed as they may be. I won’t be convinced otherwise.

She wasn't Britain's mess either just due to an accident of birth. Again, she went somewhere else to be shitty and do shitty things to people. Those people should get to decide how shittily she gets treated in return. Banishment has only not been a thing for a few hundred years. Before that it was an effective way to fuck off horrible people.

 

[brihard]

She wasn't Britain's mess either just due to an accident of birth. Again, she went somewhere else to be shitty and do shitty things to people. Those people should get to decide how shittily she gets treated in return. Banishment has only not been a thing for a few hundred years. Before that it was an effective way to fuck off horrible people.

They have decided. They want Britain to take her back. Call it banishing her back, if you wish.

Syrian Kurds demand UK repatriates teenage bride Shamima Begum and other Isis members

Exclusive: ‘We cannot bear this responsibility alone,’ official says as government refuses to repatriate jihadis

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Kat Stevens]

They have decided. They want Britain to take her back. Call it banishing her back, if you wish.

Syrian Kurds demand UK repatriates teenage bride Shamima Begum and other Isis members

Exclusive: ‘We cannot bear this responsibility alone,’ official says as government refuses to repatriate jihadis

www.independent.co.uk

No. Banishment means get the fuck out, we don’t care where you go but you can’t stay here.

 

[Dana381]

People like to cry rights in these cases, what about the rights of innocents? Extremists will extreme! Bring them back and let them run free and who knows what jihad shit they'll pull here or what other country they will run off to to further their cause.

Canada should ensure Canadians are safe from these known terrorists FIRST then help to ensure others are safe. If someone is born in Canada then that person is our problem and we need to take them back, but we need to make 100% sure they don't re-offend here or abroad. It's our duty to Canadians and to others. If they have dual citizenship or they are immigrants than their Canadian citizenship/other status should absolutly be revoked.

We need to stop putting criminals rights above the rights of law abiding citizens. What if we repatriate them and one of them blows up a church or synagogue or anything? Why does no one care about the innocents rights?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Thing is they ain’t asking you or me. They asked the courts, and the courts said “yup”.

And I'm allowed to disagree, and hope one day a government comes to power that realizes the rights and justice of the victim dead or alive is more important than the rights of the criminal.

 

[brihard]

So you guys are good with just dumping them on the Kurds, who are working hard to try to build their own nation without also having to warehouse our extremists? “They made it out of our country and to yours, 100% your problem now, sorry”? That would be a juvenile way to run ourselves as a developed country.

We have a criminal justice system and a national security infrastructure. We have the ability to legislate. There’s nothing in this we can’t knuckle down and handle.

 

[JLB50]

So you guys are good with just dumping them on the Kurds, who are working hard to try to build their own nation without also having to warehouse our extremists? “They made it out of our country and to yours, 100% your problem now, sorry”? That would be a juvenile way to run ourselves as a developed country.

We have a criminal justice system and a national security infrastructure. We have the ability to legislate. There’s nothing in this we can’t knuckle down and handle.

They were either directly involved or complicit in crimes against humanity. Let the locals handle it their own way. Possibly bring the children back and put them up for adoption. Canada always seems to try too hard to be Mr. Nice Guy amongst nations. Almost to the point of masochism.

 

[Navy_Pete]

She's now actually stateless; she is technically entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship, but only held UK citizenship. Rendering someone stateless is supposed to be illegal under international law, and why would Bangladesh even consider giving her citizenship now anyway?

They should have brought her back and held her accountable IMHO under UK laws for joining ISIS. If citizens have obligations to the state, the state also has obligations to the citizens (as well as other countries for the actions of their citizens).

A 15 year old was basically traffiked outside the UK at the outset, so they shit the bed early on. Sure, it was stupid of her, but if she had actually killed someone in the UK, they would have punished her within the UK legal system.

I don't like it, and didn't like the Khadr payout either, but if the state doesn't live up to their obligations there needs to be consequences of some kind.