"B.C. Mountie's anti-Trudeau website raises concerns about discriminatory views within the RCMP" (split from White nationalism/CF thread)

[brihard]

This extract from a government webpage mentions a Supreme Court decision but doesn't cite it:

The principles, qualifications and factors emerging from these court judgments on the duty of loyalty, including a decision of the Supreme Court of Canada, can be summarized as follows:

• The duty of loyalty owed by public servants to the Government of Canada encompasses a duty to refrain from public criticism of the Government of Canada.
• Failure to observe the duty of loyalty may justify disciplinary action, including dismissal.
• However, the duty of loyalty is not absolute, and public criticism may be justified in certain circumstances.
• In determining whether any particular public criticism is justified and therefore not subject to disciplinary action, the duty of loyalty must be balanced with other interests such as the public servant's freedom of expression.

As always, the particular facts of any case would be assessed against the principles of any SCOC ruling. I think a key point of discussion would be that he doesn't identify as a federal employee.

Fraser v. Public Service Staff Relations Board, [1985] 2 S.C.R. 455

The way the whole thing started was magnificently dumb.

Duty of Loyalty - Canada.ca

This paper was developed to describe, in general terms, the current thinking on duty of loyalty in the federal public sector. Its purpose is help employees and managers understand the key concepts and provide some assessment criteria for specific cases.

www.canada.ca

Key lines from the eventual SCC decision, which I think sums this up well:

"A public servant is required to exercise a degree of restraint in his or her actions relating to criticism of government policy, in order to ensure that the public service is perceived as impartial and effective in fulfilling its duties. It is implicit throughout the Adjudicator's reasons that the degree of restraint which must be exercised is relative to the position and visibility of the civil servant" (p. 467)

 

[RangerRay]

Fraser v. Public Service Staff Relations Board, [1985] 2 S.C.R. 455

The way the whole thing started was magnificently dumb.

Wow. What a putz.

 

[brihard]

Wow. What a putz.

Right? Quite a hill to die on.

 

[mariomike]

Police in general, not just RCMP, are subject to codes of conduct that reach beyond duty hours and into their personal life.

Not just police. The town where I live, and worked, has terminated firefighters for inappropriate social media posts.

“Reject a woman and she will never let it go. One of the many defects of their kind. Also weak arms”
“I’d never let a woman kick my a–. If she tried something, I’d be like HEY! You get your b—- a– back in the kitchen and make me some pie!”

It's easier for a city to directly fire members of their emergency services, because they are already city employees.

For a federal employee, might be easier for the mayor to request / suggest the individual be transferred out of the city.

This is the language the arbitator uses when they kick our guys out for non-criminal off-duty behavior.

Certain jobs require a high level of skill and a high level of trust from both employers and the public. For employees working in those types of positions, it’s possible that off-duty behaviour can call into question that trust, if it demonstrates poor judgment. And if an employer no longer has confidence that an employee has the judgment to perform a job of high skill and responsibility, the result could be dismissal.

 

[lenaitch]

Fraser v. Public Service Staff Relations Board, [1985] 2 S.C.R. 455

The way the whole thing started was magnificently dumb.

Duty of Loyalty - Canada.ca

This paper was developed to describe, in general terms, the current thinking on duty of loyalty in the federal public sector. Its purpose is help employees and managers understand the key concepts and provide some assessment criteria for specific cases.

www.canada.ca

Key lines from the eventual SCC decision, which I think sums this up well:

Thanks. I had read Fraser before and wasn't too sure if the extract was directly from it.

(Edit: For clarity, is should have said I had read about Fraser, not the ruling itself)

The way the whole thing started was magnificently dumb.

Ya, no kidding. We all have a little self-destruct button. Some people feel compelled to push it, just to see what happens.

 

[Navy_Pete]

So the precedent setting case was a tax auditor talking out against them going to the metric system, and calling them Nazis etc for wanting to use km and kg?

 

[brihard]

So the precedent setting case was a tax auditor talking out against them going to the metric system, and calling them Nazis etc for wanting to use km and kg?

Super nutshell version, but essentially, yeah.

Really important case law can come out of the most profoundly stupid shit.

 

[dapaterson]

Super nutshell version, but essentially, yeah.

Really important case law can come out of the most profoundly stupid shit.

Genereux appealing a drug trafficking conviction to the SCC enters the discussion.

 

[RedFive]

Super nutshell version, but essentially, yeah.

Really important case law can come out of the most profoundly stupid shit.

This is the way.

 

[brihard]

This is the way.

You guys definitely punch way above your weight for generating case law.

 

[Eaglelord17]

From what little they have outlined, it sounds like actually decent satire. I am a bit conflicted on this one as he does have the right to expression and didn't say he was working for or under the government in anyway.

Being apolitical for a job means your not expressing your views as a member of that organization. Having personal views on your own time and own dime without tying your job in it should be fine. Just because some people were able to trace him to his job, doesn't mean he should have any consequences for it. In the modern era your able to basically trace anyone to anything, there is no real level of anonymity. So unless you sit at home, make absolutely no political statements or searches, your not going to be able to completely be free of it.

As far as I am aware he didn't directly insult his chain of command (i.e. my supervisor bloggins is a complete ass). He seems to have stuck to general public issues (the PM and large policies like immigration), which are things that you should be able to criticize without consequences (considering the PM has leveled personal attacks against people like me in the past, I feel no sympathy when it comes back at him).

If anything he expressing his rights as a Canadian citizen, and attempting to go after his job for doing so is actually fairly un-Canadian.

 

[mariomike]

The mayor said she was "concerned" by the now deleted website. Associated social media sites have also since been removed.

He's currently working from home.

The mayor had this to say,

I was concerned when I saw it,” Jones said. “I think we can all agree the RCMP are there to protect everyone. They can’t single out groups they want to support or not support.”

But, not being a city employee, "administrative options" are at the discretion of the federal employer.

Media relations officer Staff Sgt. Kris Clark confirmed they are aware of the website and videos produced by one of their officers.
“The RCMP, upon learning of the website, acted quickly to have the discriminatory and offensive content taken down as well as address any internal conflict within the affected workplace,” he wrote.

“A fulsome review of the highly unprofessional offending materials was completed and administrative options are being considered.

“Public trust is essential for the RCMP to effectively serve and protect Canadians. As a result, RCMP employees must conduct themselves in a manner that not only meets, but exceeds, the rightfully high expectations of Canadians as well as our own Code of Conduct.”

Clark said the website and videos were the expressions of the officer, but not the RCMP nor its employees as a whole, and “fell far short” of the levels of professionalism they expect of their officers.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

That we have allowed the lowering of standards expected of our politicians to an abysmal level of accountability and behavior, should not be used as a reason to lower the standard expected of our professional public service folk.

 

[KevinB]

That we have allowed the lowering of standards expected of our politicians to an abysmal level of accountability and behavior, should not be used as a reason to lower the standard expected of our professional public service folk.

But @Eaglelord17 has a great point.
If he’s doing it on his own time, and not identifying himself as an RCMP member, is he not just using his personal right to freedom of expression?

 

[mariomike]

That we have allowed the lowering of standards expected of our politicians to an abysmal level of accountability and behavior, should not be used as a reason to lower the standard expected of our professional public service folk.

The conduct of our mayor during the 2010 - 2014 era was brought up during arbitration by our union during bad ( off-duty ) conduct discharges.
(Toronto (City) and CUPE, Local 416 , Re, 2013 CarswellOnt 3511 (Ont. Arb. Bd.))

The arbitrator said, unlike employees, elected officials can not be fired. That is up to the voters to decide.

As a matter of public safety, his power to govern the city in a state of emergency was removed.

But, unlike our guys, he was allowed to remain on the city payroll.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

But @Eaglelord17 has a great point.
If he’s doing it on his own time, and not identifying himself as an RCMP member, is he not just using his personal right to freedom of expression?

Of course he is, and he has every right to do it.
What he doesn't have is a right to keep a job that tells you right from the start what is expected from you.

Hey, he's not going to the gulag or anything, he just made a choice that doing a video/website seemed more important at the time then his career.

Kind of like the old days.....have drunk sex with the stripper??/ get awol charge??

Decisions, decisions....

 

[BrianWL]

Yup.

I really, really wish Kash Heed would STFU and go away already, his name always pops up in articles about the RCMP in BC like he actually knows a damn thing. He's never been a member of the RCMP and has been out of the Policing game a damn long time. If you've ever read Blamed and Broken you know he's not above slimy back room deals to bury fellow Police Officers too.

CBC has him on speed dial it seems, whenever they need to talk s*** about the force.

good point. appears if you have an anti cop viewpoint and a masters degree, you become an expert.

 

[BrianWL]

As much as I think Trudeau is taking the ship in the wrong direction, he's still the democratically elected skipper. It is what it is.

I'd like to see the RCMP (and RCMP members) stay as apolitical as possible. If you need help, get it. If you're over it, move on - lots of other services or employers will value your experience.

I've had the privilege of meeting some fantastic RCMP members. Is it an extremely hard job? From what I've heard, and what I see in the media, the answer should be obvious. But we need to find a way to hold this country together, and that means we need to preserve the national institutions. If you can no longer do your job in good faith, it's time to step aside and let someone else in. Applies equally to RCMP or CAF. It doesn't mean it's easy, but it's the right thing to do.

fair point. who is going to take on that shit job if all those with deep moral convictions leave. i have to ponder if this website or comments would have sparked the same backlash if posited by another servant of the crown.....ie) a librarian, or a health nurse, or a fire fighter.....

 

[BrianWL]

You guys definitely punch way above your weight for generating case law.

hahahaha. be fair, the horse is 5 times larger than any other Canuck police agency. guaranteed that if you took any city job and multiplied them by 5. they'd be kicking off a ton of shit in the house of commons and/or the supreme court too. and this is from a non mountie by the way....

 

[brihard]

I don’t see this guy likely losing his job. Strong peepee slap, probably lose a few days pay and maybe a transfer to somewhere he’ll be buried for a while. But as a one off I’d be astonished if he were fired.