Assault Pioneers & Assault Troopers (engineer light of the Inf & Armd)

[Scoobie Newbie]

Could you not get more people that are filling other roles in BN such as postie assistant, clerk what have you and take them out of those slots and role them into a CMBT Sp section whether it be PNR's or Mortars etc.  I know when I was in BN there where infantry types doing non-infantry work as OJPR or broken.  I am probably out to lunch but you wouldn't be adding more positions just reorganizing the manning.

 

[SeanNewman]

Lone Wolf,

Are you suggesting something like the way the Pipes and Drums are employed where someone has two different jobs (kind of)?

 

[George Wallace]

I believe he is.

As a member of the unit, he is filling a Line Serial.  If he is injured and filling a position, like the Assistant to the Postie as mentioned, he is not filling a different Line Serial, he is simply being employed in a Secondary Duty.  He is still filling a Line Serial at the Bn as an Infantryman in a Platoon.  He is just filling a temporary Secondary Duty where he can do something useful while he recovers.  He isn't likely to be sent home for six months to sit on his couch.

 

[pbi]

I agree with PPCLI Guy that the idea of the Pioneers as indiv skill sets amongst the Rifle coys is probably about as good as  we are going to get at the moment. (And, worth noting, came about under a CLS who was NOT an Infmn...but PPCLI Guy has a better sight picture on that one, no doubt.). Let's take this gift, smile, and keep on scheming, instead of pouting and asking for the moon.

That said, I agree 100% with Dangerboy about what happens to special skillsets in a rifle company: they tend to rot if hte OC and CSM don't work hard to keep them sharp. And even then, with the best OC and CSM in the world, there are so many corrosive forces out there that make it difficult if not impossible. At least, it was when I was on Regtl duty. That was a while ago, but my guess is that things aren't really too much different. It probably takes all the horsepower available just to man the LAVs and keep up those crew skills, along with a basic level of Inf skills. (Anybody more current can jack me up here...)

Cheers

 

[OldSolduer]

I agree with PPCLI Guy that the idea of the Pioneers as indiv skill sets amongst the Rifle coys is probably about as good as  we are going to get at the moment. (And, worth noting, came about under a CLS who was NOT an Infmn...but PPCLI Guy has a better sight picture on that one, no doubt.). Let's take this gift, smile, and keep on scheming, instead of pouting and asking for the moon.

That said, I agree 100% with Dangerboy about what happens to special skillsets in a rifle company: they tend to rot if hte OC and CSM don't work hard to keep them sharp. And even then, with the best OC and CSM in the world, there are so many corrosive forces out there that make it difficult if not impossible. At least, it was when I was on Regtl duty. That was a while ago, but my guess is that things aren't really too much different. It probably takes all the horsepower available just to man the LAVs and keep up those crew skills, along with a basic level of Inf skills. (Anybody more current can jack me up here...)

Cheers

I fully concur with pbi and PPCLI Guy. Bide your time and strike when the iron is hot!

 

[a_majoor]

A bit wildly off tangent here, but several posts upthread someone mentioned "pioneer like capabilities would be spread throughout the battalion" (or words to that effect). What does that even mean? I could attach a 'dozer blade to the front of every carrier and claim I have pioneer like capabilities (a sort of minimalist solution) but what is the more realistic approach to this?

Sorry for the digression, and if this triggers a thread split, then so be it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A bit wildly off tangent here, but several posts upthread someone mentioned "pioneer like capabilities would be spread throughout the battalion" (or words to that effect). What does that even mean? I could attach a 'dozer blade to the front of every carrier and claim I have pioneer like capabilities (a sort of minimalist solution) but what is the more realistic approach to this?

Sorry for the digression, and if this triggers a thread split, then so be it.

Beards, axes, an unlimited capacity for beer... that kind of stuff  ;D

Once upon a time, as a Coy Gp Comd, from time to time I was allocated a Pnr Sect from the Pnr Pl to help me get things done. These guys were great. They were essentially 'mini-engineers' and could direct the setup of minefields, obstacles etc, as well as the full range of other 'mobility enhancing' activities.

I always attached a few of my guys to the section, to help them get their jobs done. Usually they were the more checked out folks who had expressed an interest in things like blowing big holes and then filling them in. When the section went away, we were left with some keeners who had developed some of their 'pioneering' skills.

Maybe that's the idea - a kind of internal OMLT for Pioneers.

 

[vonGarvin]

Not that at all.  The one idea was for 2 members/section to receive some extra training in stuff like breaching, search, or whatever.  No beards, no axes, no extra capacity for beer.  Also, no equipment.

In short, nothing but fluff.

 

[dogger1936]

I remember getting a brief by a bunch of pioneers. Guys looked like ZZ top on steroids. They brought a lot to the battlefield; and might I add looked bad ass.....which is 90% of the battle really.  ;D

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

Fluff?  Far from it.  Right now the task of defining how this capability will be renewed resides with D Inf and the Inf Corps.  Currently the leadership of the Corps is developing an intellectual framework for the future of the Corps which should include renewing the pioneer capability.  The framework is expected to be complete this Fall at which time the Comd of the C Army will be briefed.  He will then issue direction on the way ahead at which point it will fall to DLCD to design the capability and DLFD to develop and integrate it into the C Army.  DLR will also look at it in terms of equipment, etc.  I am confident that in the near future we will see something develop.  I would caution though that this renewed capability may not look exactly like the old concept of pioneer capability.   

 

[vonGarvin]

Fluff?  Far from it. 

I disagree.  I was at the Inf School when this first came down 6 years ago. I was posted away, and back, and away again in that time.  Nothing has changed.  Nothing will change.

 

[a_majoor]

I'm with the Technoviking on this one. Grabbing a bunch of guys with picks, shovels and Gerber's and calling them "Pioneers" really puts nothing on the table that a line Infantry section can't do. The extra capabilities are imparted by both extra training but also the access to special tools. A machine gunner without a C6 isn't going to provide much extra help to you, neither will pseudo pioneers without special tools.

In the blue sky world, my first cut of a "distributed" pioneer section inside an infantry platoon or company would have a simple dozer blade fitted to the front of the carrier (think of the "S" tank or various versions of the T-72 with the fold away blade), a winch (this might not come standard with the CCV, assuming we ever get it) and perhaps an attachment on the turret for some sort of breaching charge projector (alternatively, some special ammunition for an 84mm). The tool bin would have chain saws and perhaps some other power tools (Jaws of life or something similar might provide an interesting set of capabilities), possibly self powered or maybe running off a generator or PTO on the vehicle. Add demolition kits to taste and these distributed pioneers could provide some of the capabilities we are asking for.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Errmm.......

 

[Sprinting Thistle]

Having worked closely with Army capability development this last year, I am optimistic.  That being said, I did state that the renewed capability will not look like the old capability therefore we should not expect duplication.  Thucydides has the right idea - something different but more in line of where the Army is going with the Army of Tomorrow.  Its ideas like these that will actually assist in development and design.  Perhaps more breaching? 

 

[vonGarvin]

Given the inaction during the "fatty" years of the war in Afghanistan, where the need for infantry pioneers was real, and given the lean times ahead, I remain pessimistic. 

 

[brihard]

Having worked closely with Army capability development this last year, I am optimistic.  That being said, I did state that the renewed capability will not look like the old capability therefore we should not expect duplication.  Thucydides has the right idea - something different but more in line of where the Army is going with the Army of Tomorrow.  Its ideas like these that will actually assist in development and design.  Perhaps more breaching?

The thing with breaching is you're looking at a decent amount of training time and resources to build up a good skill set in that. On UOI we did some explosive breaching, and someone who gets Basic Demolition Instructor will do it as well, but that's about it for the current state of explosive breaching in the infantry. Mechanical and ballistic are much easier of course, but that mostly limits you to unfortified doors and windows, and maybe North American interior construction.

Now, someone with BDIC can teach someone with basic demo how to do basic breaching charges. It's not rocket science, and is doable in-unit. But BDIC isn't a competency that seems to be very common (even the urban ops cell at the school has to really work to keep enough guys qualified was the sense that I go there). If breaching as a 'pioneer-ish' capability is to be made organic to the battalions down to section level, it would seem to me that that's something that would need to be sustainable in house in terms of enough instructors on hand to keep guys trained up in the normal cycle of things. That's quite some ways away from the status quo as far as I can tell. Also, insert here random gripe about shock tube not yet being OKed for green army despite being in the BDIC QS... *grumble*.

That's just explosive of course, and that particular training comes with a greater safety burden than most, but it's also arguably the most versatile. I'm inclined to think that the old pioneer formula of having guys who could do a lot of different straightforward stuff with explosives was probably the right one. It's a pretty good value added. Add to that some sort of kit on a few of the LAVs, as you mention, and there's yet more in 9er's back pocket.

But this is a capability that I really dislike lacking. Compared to everything else the army does, that would be a pretty considerable capability return on investment for the cost of running some good Cpls through a couple weeks worth of breaching training.

 

[a_majoor]

1. The LAV engineer vehicle one/platoon or coy: yes. For the weapon an 81mm breech loading mortar would provide a lot of bang used in the DF role against field expedient fortifications, barricades etc.

2. Explosives training is (and should be) very intensive, especially as you do more elaborate stuff like cutting charges etc. Since like TechnoViking I'm not buying the idea that we are going all out to get new capabilities, then we need to look outside the box a bit more. For a quick/dirty and low cost approach to breaching, I might suggest that the Army purchase "pre fab" frame charges so our presumptive new pioneers simply need to understand how to stick them to walls, plant a brace or backing to keep the charge braced against the wall and the proper safety distance before firing. This might be perhaps one step up from the much derided "cartoon" instructions that were once part of an M-72 or the helpful "This side towards enemy" molded into the Claymore mine, but we are looking at doing this with minimal time, training and costs. 84mm HEDP can also be used for breaching without having to come close to the wall, a way the "new" pioneers can shoot in an attack against a fortified building.

3. Perhaps we might inquire as to what the "Army of Tomorrow" sees as the capabilities being wanted?

 

[Towards_the_gap]

For a quick/dirty and low cost approach to breaching, I might suggest that the Army purchase "pre fab" frame charges so our presumptive new pioneers simply need to understand how to stick them to walls, plant a brace or backing to keep the charge braced against the wall and the proper safety distance before firing. This might be perhaps one step up from the much derided "cartoon" instructions that were once part of an M-72 or the helpful "This side towards enemy" molded into the Claymore mine, but we are looking at doing this with minimal time, training and costs.

These do exist in the form of 'Gatecrasher' charges. Plastic frames which you fill with water, pack the back with C4, insert initiating set and away you go to knock on someones door. Perfect for what you propose.

 

[MedCorps]

As recently as this past May I have spoken to staff officers on the CA Staff about this capacity build.  In speaking to them they indicated that it is going forward as a Comd CA approved plan. 

The plan will see a 20-25 day formal Pioneer Course offered by units (with the Centre of Excellence being the Inf School or CFSME). This is not all that shorter then the old course, which was 30 days Reg F or 33 days Res F.

It will not see these trained personnel end up in a pioneer platoon but rather dispersed within the unit (due to the requirement to remain PY neutral) as a decentralized capability. The idea is that the additional skills set conferred by this qualification will add to the field capacity when paired with additional personnel with the 4 or 5 day Basic Demolition Course or the 15 day Basic Demolition Instructions Course.  There is no intention to run an Advanced Pioneer Course again.

It would appear that these new pioneers will have a lesser skill set then the old pioneers, but still a useful one IMHO. 

They will be able to:
- Conduct explosive breaching
- Conduct mechanical breaching
- Breach point obstacles and fences with or without explosives
- Use small boats and conduct improvised wet gap crossing
- Have some additional, but limited, demolitions skills
- Create simple and complex wire obstacles
- Construct improvised road blocks
- Construct field fortifications and bunkers
- Improve urban defensive positions (room shoring, fire proofing, sandbagging, etc)
- Construct improvised targetry
- Destruct duds / blinds for grenades and artillery simulators (any maybe 66/Carl Gustav rounds)
- Construct battle simulation
- Construct one / two / three strand rope bridges
- Use tools such as chainsaws and punjars in a limited manner

They will not be able to:

Advise anyone Combat Team Comd or higher on engineer matters
Conduct counter-IED
Conduct explosive ordnance disposal
Construct roads
Construct bridges, other than rope bridges
Emplace anti-tank mines (block 3 / PO 405/406 of the old course)
Construct an abaitis
Crater roads / runways
Destroy bridges
Conduct advanced CBRN tasks (block 2 / PO 403 of the old course)
Conduct building recce and planning
Partake in any tasks requiring specialized engineer tools or vehicles

I hope this is of some interest / help.  It is quite an exciting time for the Army to gain part of the pioneer capacity back.  If I was a Infantry NCM again I would have my fingers crossed hopping I got picked to do this course.

MC

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Ah, but who will teach it initially?

*ahem*

(raises hand furtively, in the hopes of time spent back with the infantry)

Edited to add:

But seriously, what about all arms search?