Armed Forces Consider incentives to keep soldiers fit

[MJP]

Off Topic:  FTFY!

Good Catch

Set a standard.  If you don't achieve it, you get kicked out (after, of course, a period remedial training and unsuccessful re-attempts).  If you pass, you get to keep your job.  Let Commanders decide of incentives for their airmen(airwomen)/soldiers/sailors.  It seems we remove more and more responsibilities from those in charge and try to get one size-fit all solutions to everything....  Not exactly the most efficient and effective way to do business....

Imagine if we had promotion scrits for each trade and some formalized group of senior leadership from that trade too set those scrits yearly.  Then those same(ish) people sat down and assessed people in that trade against that scrit within some kind of over-arching guidelines.  Craziness!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

EVERYONE LISTEN UP!

Yes we have super ninja's and we have sloths.  Lets keep this thread factual and not full of either self-bragging or insulting other trades.
Thank you,
Bruce
army.ca staff

 

[OldCrow937]

Hi all ! Nobody special here just another Operator... and two shiny penny's about to get rubbed together so here go's !

I was involved in the initial testing and trials for the FORCE testing phase #2 , which included 3 weeks of testing in Halifax.

I am in trade that is geared towards higher intellect then muscle mass... but motivated to stay fit I had worked hard to complete a ships diver course and make a great excuse to have to keep running and lifting in between learning new fire control radar parametric's!
The year previous to the FORCE being introduced I had been "exempt" from doing an Express test , I always viewed this as my free pass skipping a yearly test based on my personal motivation to be above the minimum standard for physical fitness, but I had seen quite a few other trades being restricted on how much gym time or PT time they could get during working hours vs my own sections...

Which leads me to think that having +2 points on your PER is not really a great thing for having achieved a higher physical test score, considering the clerks on board during our refit were never allowed off the boat and would have to do all training outside of regular hours vs the combat section whom didn't have any gear to use on board having hours to play floor hockey and lift mad weight.

The fact is the forces has a minimum standard and I think its great they want to encourage members to achieve "more" I know that from a unit level our CO had gave 1 day off to the top 10 members when the FORCE first arrived and you can bet your bottom dollar people were chucking sandbags faster then the usual suspects could eat duff during stand easy ! IT WORKED! We had a full blown competition on our hands and it was marvelous!

I know some will argue that its our job , and don't reward doing your job... but going above the basal level and reaching for more... your darn right to want to reward that...
because when your in the thick of things..... DO YOU WANT MEMBERS DOING THE BARE MIN?

NO!

YOU WANT THEM GOING ALL OUT! 
TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT!!!
ESPRIT DE CORPS BABY!


....drops mic!

 

[Jarnhamar]

Deployments.  We need to start sending out non CANSOFCOM members on some meaningful deployments.  Not annual check in the box trips to Wainwright or Dog and pony shows.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

In this day and age, new deployment will likely come with a blue beret and retarded, useless ROE.  If I was still in the green machine, I'd be thinking "pass!" on that gig.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hi all ! Nobody special here just another Operator... and two shiny penny's about to get rubbed together so here go's !

I was involved in the initial testing and trials for the FORCE testing phase #2 , which included 3 weeks of testing in Halifax.

I am in trade that is geared towards higher intellect then muscle mass... but motivated to stay fit I had worked hard to complete a ships diver course and make a great excuse to have to keep running and lifting in between learning new fire control radar parametric's!
The year previous to the FORCE being introduced I had been "exempt" from doing an Express test , I always viewed this as my free pass skipping a yearly test based on my personal motivation to be above the minimum standard for physical fitness, but I had seen quite a few other trades being restricted on how much gym time or PT time they could get during working hours vs my own sections...

Which leads me to think that having +2 points on your PER is not really a great thing for having achieved a higher physical test score, considering the clerks on board during our refit were never allowed off the boat and would have to do all training outside of regular hours vs the combat section whom didn't have any gear to use on board having hours to play floor hockey and lift mad weight.

The fact is the forces has a minimum standard and I think its great they want to encourage members to achieve "more" I know that from a unit level our CO had gave 1 day off to the top 10 members when the FORCE first arrived and you can bet your bottom dollar people were chucking sandbags faster then the usual suspects could eat duff during stand easy ! IT WORKED! We had a full blown competition on our hands and it was marvelous!

I know some will argue that its our job , and don't reward doing your job... but going above the basal level and reaching for more... your darn right to want to reward that...
because when your in the thick of things..... DO YOU WANT MEMBERS DOING THE BARE MIN?

NO!

YOU WANT THEM GOING ALL OUT! 
TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT!!!
ESPRIT DE CORPS BABY!


....drops mic!

I agree.

So then why do we set the fitness bar so low, officially, through something like the FORCE test then give people a shiny badge for it?

We are rewarding mediocrity, and devaluing 'bling', in a concurrent fashion.

(Places mike carefully back on it's stand messing about with the on/off switch... annoying feedback causes noticeable wincing in the audience...)

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I agree.

So then why do we set the fitness bar so low, officially, through something like the FORCE test then give people a shiny badge for it?

We are rewarding mediocrity, and devaluing 'bling', in a concurrent fashion.

I think the spirit of the FORCE test is good, however I see this as they set the bar too low to begin with, and were interrupted by the political correctness crowd when they tried to raise it.

"What do you mean its too easy? Older folks/women don't find it too easy! We can't make them to feel inferior...."

Hence you have a low standard that has been bastardized and mutated into a tier system. The whole reason we got rid of the EXPRESS test.

What should have happened was they trial the FORCE test for 2 years, accumulate the scores from EVERYONE in the CAF (not just trial groups) and then average out the scores. Make the mean score the baseline and provide incentives for being above the baseline. That solves the mediocrity and maintains one standard regardless of age or gender.

But ofcourse, that would be too easy

:facepalm:

 

[cld617]

I think the spirit of the FORCE test is good, however I see thisbas theyvset the bar too low to begin with, and were interrupted by the political correctness crowd when they tried to raise it.

"What do you mean its too easy? Older folks/women don't find it too easy! We can't make them to feel inferior...."

Hence you have a low standard that has been bastardized and mutated into a tier system. The whole reason we got rid of the EXPRESS test.

What should have happened was they trial the FORCE test for 2 years, accumulate the scores from EVERYONE in the CAF (not just trial groups) and then average out the scores. Make the mean score the baseline and provide incentives for being above the baseline. That solves the mediocrity and maintains one standard regardless of age or gender.

But ofcourse, that would be too easy

:facepalm:

So then you're left with half the population, who fell below the median who actually did try and simply cannot complete the test to a level to get them above average. I'm telling you right now, the 105lb 50 year old female RMS clerk who is stellar at her job, is not going to pull that stack of sandbags quick enough to be in the top 50%. She needs to be ranked against her peers, not 20 year old men who offset that average out of reach for her.

Everyone shouldn't get a participation ribbon, but people shouldn't have an advantage just for being young either. The only fair way to assess a mbrs effort wrt physical fitness is to evaluate them to their peers. In the end that's what an incentive is supposed to be about, rewarding hard work.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We shouldn't go back to a gender based test but age categories makes sense.

In this day and age, new deployment will likely come with a blue beret and retarded, useless ROE.  If I was still in the green machine, I'd be thinking "pass!" on that gig.

I was thinking (hoping) more platoon and company sized mini deployments or training missions. 

 

[armyvern]

Your job includes physical fitness, please refer to chapter 22 of the CDS's guidance to Commanding Officers if you disagree with me. I also have trade related duties which must be completed during work hours, they most certainly do not afford me daily PT. Therefore I make up the difference on my own time, as anyone else should if they fall short of the recommended 5x a week (again, from the CDS).

No one is taking your birthday away if you chose to go home at the end of the day and not to the gym. Also, no one has come out with directives on which incentive level is required for whatever the chosen incentive will turn out to be. Currently the requirements for obtaining a bronze incentive level are not high at all. Failing to meet this level is indicative of someone who isn't putting in any sort of extra effort.

I am quite well aware of what my job includes, and also am well aware of the CDS' Guideance to Commanding Officers.  My duties are no longer trade-related. 

You seem to be rotating in a circle of "only elite fitness" is indicative of a good soldier and their ability to perform well, even exceptionally well.  Fitness is but one indicator of that despite what your mindset (and posting history) seems to indicate is your own belief.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So then you're left with half the population, who fell below the median who actually did try and simply cannot complete the test to a level to get them above average. I'm telling you right now, the 105lb 50 year old female RMS clerk who is stellar at her job, is not going to pull that stack of sandbags quick enough to be in the top 50%. She needs to be ranked against her peers, not 20 year old men who offset that average out of reach for her.

The enemy won't care about these types of considerations...and they are the ones who we should be thinking about, not the "PC lets not offend anyone" crowd.

 

[armyvern]

The enemy won't care about these types of considerations...and they are the ones who we should be thinking about, not the "PC lets not offend anyone" crowd.

I'm having a hard time grasping onto any concept whereby our enemy actually gives a hoot whether or not we hand out bling for fitness or how we go about determining who gets the bling.

 

[dapaterson]

I think the spirit of the FORCE test is good, however I see this as they set the bar too low to begin with, and were interrupted by the political correctness crowd when they tried to raise it.

"What do you mean its too easy? Older folks/women don't find it too easy! We can't make them to feel inferior...."

Hence you have a low standard that has been bastardized and mutated into a tier system. The whole reason we got rid of the EXPRESS test.

What should have happened was they trial the FORCE test for 2 years, accumulate the scores from EVERYONE in the CAF (not just trial groups) and then average out the scores. Make the mean score the baseline and provide incentives for being above the baseline. That solves the mediocrity and maintains one standard regardless of age or gender.

But ofcourse, that would be too easy

:facepalm:

Here's a great idea.  Investigate the intent of the FORCE test (not the incentives).  Determine whether it meets that intent.

Then come online and rage.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I'm having a hard time grasping onto any concept whereby our enemy actually gives a hoot whether or not we hand out bling for fitness or how we go about determining who gets the bling.

They don't.  They just want to be able to get to us, and kill us.  Publicly and brutally (IMO).  Then they can "post it on their FB page".  They are patient and preparing for the battle 20 years from now, 10 years from now, and today.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Our lack of purpose is causing us to piss around with half-ass rewards, silly patches, shitty equipment projects and weak recruiting requirements.

 

[RedcapCrusader]

Our lack of purpose is causing us to piss around with half-ass rewards, silly patches, shitty equipment projects and weak recruiting requirements.

Almost feels like we need a war just to keep us from doing stupid sh*t and our highers from making stupid sh*t decisions.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm having a hard time grasping onto any concept whereby our enemy actually gives a hoot whether or not we hand out bling for fitness or how we go about determining who gets the bling.

This.

This x 100.

 

[cld617]

I am quite well aware of what my job includes, and also am well aware of the CDS' Guideance to Commanding Officers.  My duties are no longer trade-related. 

You seem to be rotating in a circle of "only elite fitness" is indicative of a good soldier and their ability to perform well, even exceptionally well.  Fitness is but one indicator of that despite what your mindset (and posting history) seems to indicate is your own belief.

There is nothing elite about achieving the top incentive level of this fitness test, nor is there any indication to suggest that only the top level will result in some form of a incentive "reward".

It's also the only indicator relevant to this topic , as it's one facet of your job that is the center of this discussion. I work hard at my job, but I don't have a second language profile nor am I doing an post-secondary courses on my own after hours. By your rationale, it's unfair that mbrs who can tick these boxes as they're in a position which affords them the opportunity to pursue said extras, do you feel the same about them as well as fitness?

 

[armyvern]

There is nothing elite about achieving the top incentive level of this fitness test, nor is there any indication to suggest that only the top level will result in some form of a incentive "reward".

It's also the only indicator relevant to this topic , as it's one facet of your job that is the center of this discussion. I work hard at my job, but I don't have a second language profile nor am I doing an post-secondary courses on my own after hours. By your rationale, it's unfair that mbrs who can tick these boxes, do you feel the same about them as well as fitness?

For starters, I never posted that it was "unfair" to award an incentive (or a "tick" as you call it). 

Actually, each of the items that you've listed are but "indicators".  None of them are singularly indicative of anything - even success, but taken as a whole, they certainly can "round out" an individual.  They are but several of many more things that good soldiers should have, but not possessing one of these should rule out someone as being a good soldier either.

As for "elite" - it is a matter of perspective.  Even those that fall below the bronze and are therefore deemed to be "below average" are for the cast majority of them going to be much more fit that their Canadian citizen peers. 

I also don't know where you are getting the idea that I am against fitness; I am not and I am fit.  As I said, it is not the be all and end all of what constitutes good soldiers and/or leadership.  I also stated that "by your posting history", you seem to place its value higher than other important things such as resiliency, experience, trade skills etc as you've brought it up in other threads.

Not even going to address your edit about "being in positions" ... it's irrelevant; I have Cpls with Masters and there's a Cpl PhD next to me.

 

[PuckChaser]

I was curious, so I put the fol values into the calculator:

Rushes: 40s
Sandbag: 1m
Shuttles: 2:30m
Drag: 15s
Waist: 86cm (34 inches)

It does account for age, and moves you up the line as you go.

17yo M - upper Bronze
30yo M - high Bronze
40yo M - mid Silver
50yo M - high Silver
59yo M - mid Gold

I tried to do the same with the female standards, but 17yo female with the same numbers was mid Gold and only moved to Platinum at 40yo.

So these standards do seem to take into account age group and gender, so when you gain Platinum standard, you're top 0.1% of your age group and gender. The only issue becomes when you compare a 50yo Cpl against a 21yo Cpl of the same gender. At that point, that 50yo Cpl is likely not going to see above Sgt at the absolute top end, so really their career isn't taking a huge hit.